I'm having trouble

[pongosnodgrass]

making friends. Or rather, keeping them.

Ginormous post and this sounds trivial but it's really affecting me. I feel so very low about it. I keep trying to think what the heck is so very unappealing about me so that I can change it because it seems to be a universal opinion about me!

I've never been particular popular. That doesn't matter as I've always had at least one core friend and I've never felt it important to be popular.

Except I don't even have one core friend anymore. In fact, I've been dumped by someone who I thought was a really good friend - lots of laughs, fun nights out together etc. She has worked very hard to let me know indirectly that she is no longer interested in being friends. I feel deeply embarrassed and cringe that I didn't take the hints earlier. I must have looked like an idiot just engaging her in normal banter, inviting her and her dcs over for our usual play dates (that she was suddenly always too busy for), lending her my maternity clothes because she'd never been pg in the summer before and I had, etc.

Additionally, I am utterly invisible. For example, at my dcs' swimming lesson, I bumped into an old colleague. Granted we were never really friends at work but friendly enough.

After my initial hi, the subsequent weeks where we have both been at the pool, she has just looked right through me, ignored me and walked past me.

Today, after she blanked me again, I forced her to acknowledge my existence with a cheery, "Hi. How are you doing?" She responded with a bright smile and walked on past into the viewing gallery where we both sat for 30 minutes (with lots of other people) and no conversation between us at all. It was excruciating at one point because one of my dcs shared a bit of chocolate with one of hers and she had to acknowledge me and say thanks.

The same thing happens at school. Now I know the school run is a nightmare but I thought I had made some friends there. I'm a sahm so sometimes these interactions (or lack of) can really cut to the quick. I often stand alone despite smiling and greeting the other parents. They would just far rather talk to other parents. I can feel myself just shrinking from any contact.

I have another friend who I can feel is starting to chill on me. I feel like inviting her over, telling her how I feel and tell her it's fine if she buggers off and wants to cool our friendship but please please to tell me where I'm going wrong so that I can learn for future friendships.

My 3 sils are also very cold and distant to me but very friendly to each other. They have lots of exchanges on FB etc.

In short, I feel like I am really not likeable even repugnant or I am at first and I do something to offend / put people off.

I have 4 dcs and I don't want my deep unpopularity to affect their play date opportunities. They barely have any. In fact, the only playdates they seem to have are with the children of new parents at the school who seem friendly enough, they come over and then it's never reciprocated or they never come again. And they too seem to blank me.

Sigh. This has been going on for ages now and I just feel very sad and lonely. My marriage is fine. Dh is happy and content and popular, I might add.

Should I go to counselling because I'm getting really low and miserable about it?

Sounds dreadful for you.

Do you think you might be coming across as too needy? Clutching at straws with that as you sound totally normal in your admittedly epic post!

:)

You don't give anything to go on re why people might be cooling on you so much.

You sound perfectly normal.

That's not much help is it.

I have always had this problem around school / activities with DS.

I just don't think it's a great environment to make friends in.

I find the interactions too short (school gates etc) to develop any real connection with anyone and so I've come to view this as an area of superficial friendly interaction - maybe a 5 minute chat to exchange pleasantries but nothing more.

In my view good friendships tend to develop when you do something alongside other people over a sustained period of time, often with a common purpose, eg school, work, voluntary work, further study, hobby / interest groups etc.

I always find it easiest to make friends when my main purpose is not trying to, iyswim.

Difficult when you are a SAHM I admit. I suppose what I am saying is maybe you are looking in the wrong place. What about looking for opportunities to get involved with a local toddler / playgroup / after school activity group as a helper? Or an activity / club you can do in the evening?

I never really sought out friends at the school run. I was very wary after having read threads on MN on how very tricky it could all be. I simply thought I would very much keep it as a pick up/drop off my dcs situation.

However, pretty quickly two of the mums really wanted to be pals with me which I thought was great.

Except one of them turned out to take total advantage of my willingness to help e.g. calling me every other day at 3.10pm asking me to pick up her dcs as she was "caught" in London. Or I'd offer to help out by taking her dcs with mine (all same age) to park for the morning and she'd not return until 2/3pm. I called her on it and she went mental. She is extremely popular and a social Queen Bee at the school.

The friend who has just dumped me is totally bff with this Queen Bee. My mistake was to bitch about the Queen Bee when she was really upsetting me with her requests for childcare. My friend was so sympathetic and amazed at the behaviour. Now they are totally as thick as thieves. That's great for them but I can't get where I went wrong really. Perhaps by pulling up one friend on her taking advantage of my helping out?

Anyway, I guess that's that and it's nothing I can change. But what I can change is the future and make that better. I guess I've really noticed now that I can't make many girlfriends and when I do, they scarper pretty quickly.

I don't think I'm needy. I love my own company. I crave it with 4 dcs!

Not a pattern at all. I have never experienced someone like the other woman who is utterly brazen in her approach of getting other people to do things for her.

I didn't know how to handle it and spoke about it to my friend who was amazed I had put up with it for so long and said I should say something. So I did.

When I said I felt she was taking advantage of me, she called me an effing bitch and burned off in her car. That was in the school drop off area, mind.

So that's what happened there.

I name changed for this but have outed myself.

People often get angry and/or defensive if they feel they are being attacked or criticised. I just think perhaps it was abit unnecessary to tell this Queen Bee that you felt she was taking advantage of you as it suggests that she is not a very nice person. Perhaps she kept asking you for these favours because you kept saying yes to them and therefore she didn't realise that it was an issue for you? If someone asks you a favour you can just say no without having to justify why.

It sounds as if the 'support' of the other friend made you bolder than you would perhaps otherwise have been, in tackling the 'queen bee' - no-one likes being told they are users. Just making yourself less available to be taken advantage of, once you spotted what was happening , would have got you out of the situation without such fallout. I'm not saying it would have changed the outcome, though, as the QB would doubtless have quietly dropped you and the other friend may well have chosen to align herself with QB - from lurking on threads here, this kind of stuff is commonplace in playgrounds so I agree with PPs - look elsewhere for new friendships, but focus on being comfortable with yourself, as real friends are few and far between. I tend to have different friends for different activities, and no-one that I would call a 'best friend'.

Yes I am sure I handled the Queen Bee very badly.

I did say no to her on several occasions after I'd offered to take her dcs out with mine for a morning and she didn't get back until 4pm.

When I told her I felt she was taking advantage it was when she'd assumed I'd be picking up her ds from school without asking me.

Anyway I most definitely should have handled it directly without discussing it or bitching about it to my other friend first. Now I look like the bad guy because I'd had enough of being used like an extension of the Queen Bee's staff and protested.

Heigh ho. I'll be glad when primary school is over!

To be fair, Queen Bee does sound quite annoying. It was rude of her to "assume" that you will pick her DS up without asking you first and not returning calls/texts etc. I think its fair enough if you told her that you felt she was taking advantage in that context but also don't think its surprising that she responded the way she did or that she wouldn't talk to you again. You are better off without someone like that who is just going to to use you and not care about you enough to return calls. I wouldn't beat yourself up too much about looking like the "bad guy" - she doesn't sound like she has behaved that greatly either, in fact has shown her true colours.

You say you have an issue with friendships etc. Perhaps do some research into how to build healthy boundaries in relationships and also how to be more discerning with regard to picking friends, how pick up signs of toxic behaviour etc.

You sound really insightful. The QB situation was unfortunate. I don't think many casual friendships would survive that. She'll probably drop someone else soon, so maybe you'll form a posse of Discarded Former Friends!

One thing not mentioned and I hesitate to because I don't want to offend....but, are your children off putting at all? Noisy, over boisterous, impolite, generally hard work? Children fro large families can be all of these (I'm one of four) and it can be/is your norm. To parents of one or two it can seem just unruly.

I second the idea of making friends elsewhere. Join the PTA, too if not already and be a willing pair of hands. Not too involved IYSWIM.

Good luck. I think you sound really nice.

Well, my ds1 can be bossy and doesn't like football so I guess that's a lot of boys at school who aren't interested in him as many if the boys are mad keen focussed on football at break times.

Dd is a tomboy and detests anything girly like dollies and dresses. That doesn't seem to have stopped her from making a few friends though.

Ds2 is jolly boy. His year is actually really nice parents.

Ds3 is a baby.

Perhaps I need to accept that some folk just give off an unappealing vibe or something and that's me!

3 things.
On the school run, keep a look out for those parents who seem to be on the edge socially so to speak. Personally I find they can often be very nive and are very willing to be friends.
Secondly, a bit more drastic. Sometimes, it can be the area that you live in, or at least the immediate area. There was a thread on here some months ago, where poster were agreeing that certain areas of the country, or within a county were very insular. And also unwelcoming to tourists.
Thirdly, if you ever feel invisible on mumsnet, there is a group on here for just that - invisible wavers. The thread currently going is called High IQ[stands for invisibility quotient or somesuch] wavers. We are on our third thread.

I sometimes feel like this as well and I've often fallen out with people at work because they've misread my actions/behaviour. I think I'm a nice and friendly person, but I am incredibly sensitive and I pick up on the smallest of things and personalise it to myself. I also find it hard forgetting a grudge and I can't act like it's forgotten as I get uncomfortable and sweaty and stressed around the person and have to literally hide from them. I also don't like to take crap from people so I can say no, which isn't great when people are trying to walk all over you at work!

I think that I tend to say things without thinking how it sounds to the other person, so although I am being nice, they think I'm having a dig at them/taking the mick I just rub@ people up the wrong way.

But I have a loving husband who doesn't know I have these issues and my DS are amazing friends.

At the swimming pool, the other mum could just be very shy and waiting for you to make the conversation. Those times you didn't make small talk, she could have been thinking "doesn't she like me? why isn't she talking to me? did I do something wrong?".

There's a book called "the highly sensitive person" by Elaine Aron, a book for those who come across as aloof, shy or moody and with low self esteem. could be worth having a read?

Yes, swish. I know how you feel.

It's feels so extreme sometimes. On a parents night out recently, I had the table in stitches. One mum thanked me for making her night. Since then she has been as distant and as uninterested as everybody else.

I worry that I might pong a bit!

The ex colleague at the swimming pool is definitely not shy! However I have discovered from another ex colleague she has had a very bad time. Was widowed 3 years ago with 2 very young dds and you know what, she really probably doesn't want to have to talk about it all in a general catch up conversation at the pool! You can't blame her now, can you?

Swish, it didn't sound like that at all with the woman at the swimming pool. It is the OP who's saying hello, not the other woman.

You weren't asking her about the death of her husband though, were you?

OP the Queen bee and other woman on the school run sound dreadful. It's natural when you are frustrated by a situation to Want to let off a of steam about it and we have all been in that position where we've moaned to the wrong person. To be honest I think it would have ended email way it has anyway whether you'd said something or not. Some people have nothing better to do with their time but try and lord it over others. I'm always astounded at the amount of gossip and rumour that seems to fly around.

Definitely agree that trying to meet people outside of the school run may work better. I hope things start to look up a bit for you soon. Can you distance yourself a bit from that group?

Dreadful typos on phone sorry - anyway not email!

Living, I think you're right. I've written off Queen Bee and ex friend as really not friend material at all. I'm polite and friendly at school to them but I don't think we shall be meeting socially again, even if they wanted to. Which they clearly don't so that makes it easy for me and plus I don't want to give them any material to talk about me. Head down, drop dcs off and back home again.

I think it's time I started casting about to retrain, try and start life properly outside of the dcs' world.

Do you think you're a people pleaser?

I thinkswimming mum may be having a hard time and as you have 4 dcs thinks you are the life and soul and are too busy to bother with her?

Also, all this stuff of how you said hello,had them in stitches, was friendly and they re horrid and have blanked you is really quite self-centred!!
If you look at them waiting for them to come running to you perhaps you are giving off an air off being a bit stand offish?
When you stand in playground on your own is it because you were first their and no one joins you or do you get there when there is already a group and you don't join them?

I know its miserable feeling you have no mates but you are doing a lot of judging when for example, you decided swimming mum didn't like you and then discovered what a crap time she'd had. Think about the others and what you can bring to their lives and you may suddenly find you have the friends you want!!!

All this talk of having them in stitches etc was me saying that I can and do engage with people on a normal level.

I thought that by making an evening pleasant and humorous, by offering to help friends out (although not to the point of their taking the Michael) and generally making an effort was indicative of what I could and should bring to people.

I was therefore trying to figure out what the common denominator is. I was assuming it was me and my failings.

I am always the one greeting people, saying hello, starting conversations but it seems that I am unable to sustain friendships. For whatever reason.

I don't think I am a people pleaser. I obviously don't seek to offend.

Am not meaning to criticise - I find it hard like you ! do you listen and show and interest on them or are you too busy trying to'entertain'/'make an effort/trying to help/? I don't know what the answer is, I think I'm trying to say are you too concerned with how you are feeling/thinking.

Not from a selfish point of view but from a nervous 'please like me'

Oh dear I'm not saying all this very well! but I'm trying to help you in my clumsy way!!!