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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Getting over weird relationship - sorry, very long

62 replies

misty75 · 26/10/2013 19:04

I need to get over a recent relationship and would be really grateful for any advice. It's really knocked my self-confidence. I was only with this man for five months, and the first couple of months were amazing. He was kind, loving, considerate and attentive, and we were in constant contact, on the phone for hours almost every day and spent every weekend together. I had a really rough time in an abusive relationship 15 years ago and I opened up to him and trusted him with stuff that I hadn't told anyone before. He was amazing and made me feel accepted and safe.

He'd also had a difficult time in his marriage, that had recently ended, due to his wife's affairs, deceit and emotional abuse. He opened up to me a lot about how he had been treated as well, and we talked a lot about our experiences and what we believed good relationships should be like, agreeing to treat each other with respect, kindness, honesty and consideration. It wasn't all heavy emotional stuff though, we had a great deal of fun and laughter too and interesting days and nights out.

There was one thing that came up early on – something that he was interested in pursuing in a relationship. I said I really wasn't sure about that and would need to work out how I felt about it. He didn't express any doubts about being with me at this point and carried on as enthusiastically as before, and so I assumed it couldn't be a deal-breaker and that he wanted to be with me either way.

After about two and a half months I became uneasy about the thing he'd expressed an interest in, and asked him outright whether he'd still want to be with me if I decided I couldn't do it. I was hoping for reassurance. He wouldn't give me a straight answer and talked me round in circles, using all kinds of evasion/diversion tactics, trying to persuade me that I didn't understand what I was asking, trying to change the subject, misunderstanding the question and giving me an answer relating to something completely different, stepping back from what I was asking and insisting that we talk about how we were communicating instead, and denying throughout that he was being evasive, telling me he couldn't give me any answer because I was hoping for a particular answer and that was wrong of me. The more upset I got (and I wasn't shouting and ranting, just crying and pleading with him to answer the question) the more he withdrew, until he 'couldn't' speak. Then he imposed a break from the subject and refused to discuss it again until we'd had endless discussions on how to communicate. He never did give me a straight answer and this left me feeling very insecure and stressed.

This set the tone for the rest of our relationship. Apparently I was not allowed to show too much emotion as this put pressure on him. I should only ask questions 'without expectation' ie. I was not allowed to show while asking a question what my preferred answer would be (as this would be emotional blackmail), but at the same time had to be completely open and honest about my feelings at all times. If I showed affection or did something nice for him, he had to be convinced (and I'm not sure how) that I didn't have 'ulterior motives' about wanting him to say or do something nice back, because that would be dishonest. But I had to be nice to him regardless of how he was treating me, otherwise that would be manipulative. And if he wasn't nice to me, it was my own fault for wanting him to be and therefore putting him under 'duress'. There was a whole load of sometimes complicated stuff along those lines. He didn't criticise me in an angry way, more with the implication that I was making him suffer and that he was helping me work on myself.

All this was in the name of 'how to treat each other well'. And shamefully, I took it on board, believing that I was at fault, and spent the next few months trying harder and harder to please him. When I told him he was making me feel upset and insecure, he told me that he wasn't making me feel anything, that my feelings were my own and my insecurity was all down to the abuse I'd suffered in the past, and encouraged me to get counselling, which I did. He actually made me feel that the legacy of the abuse was far deeper than I'd ever realised; whereas before I felt proud to have survived and made my life better, now I felt scared that I was so damaged that I couldn't even see it. When he said all these things to me, he never sounded at all spiteful or uncaring. He sounded as though he was genuinely trying to help me and doing it all for my own good. And there were wonderful times too in the middle of all this. I was on a rollercoaster of elation and despair.

I should have walked away when all that began. I don't understand why I didn't, why I believed him, made excuses for him, doubted myself, and got drawn deeper and deeper into this weird dynamic. I eventually realised things were seriously wrong when he accused me of 'inconsistency' and refused to speak to me for hours because I had changed my mind about wanting to go and have a cigarette, and then criticised me for appearing to be walking on eggshells. He behaved as though my actions had hurt him terribly.

I confronted him with it all, and he admitted to it all, but said that he had done nothing wrong and that it was because he was afraid of losing me. We split up.

I know it was only a short relationship but it's seriously rattled me – I find it hard not to keep second-guessing myself and examining myself for ulterior motives when I'm nice to people, and I find it hard to talk about this because I feel it makes me sound as though I must have been demanding, high-maintenance, manipulative and dishonest for my ex to have been like that, and I'm none of those things. I worry that people I talk to are thinking badly of me and that I'm in the wrong without even realising. I'm feeling like my emotions about the abuse in the past have resurfaced. My relationship with the counsellor also broke down, because I tried to explain to her that I'd started counselling on entirely the wrong basis, at the instigation of my ex, and that I felt I needed the counselling to help me with getting over the relationship now instead, but it all seemed so complicated to explain and she said things like 'But you seemed so happy'. I asked her for validation that this relationship had been emotionally abusive, and she said she could not pass judgement on that. Can anyone here confirm that this was emotional abuse? (I'm waiting to see a different counsellor now, possibly for CBT.)

I'd thought that I was stronger than this and that I had better self-esteem than to allow myself to be treated that way. I'm 38, hold down a demanding and worthwhile job, have some good friends and family. I don't know how I allowed this to happen. It's over two months now since we split up. Someone I really liked asked me out the other week and I accepted but then got too frightened to go and had to cancel. I didn't drink for a long time after overdoing it in the past, but have got drunk several times in the last two months, and then I get even more anxious the next day. I know I didn't deserve to be treated like that, but then part of me keeps thinking 'What if I'm wrong? What if I am the problem?' I know I need to get out and do things and see people to take my mind off all this, but I feel too anxious a lot of the time. I don't feel depressed, but feel scared and slightly out of touch with reality.

It's shaken my whole sense of self, and all this over a five month relationship with someone I don't even miss any more. I feel pathetic. Please, can someone help? I know some people have far worse problems, plus I'm not even a mum, but I've seen some brilliant advice here. Thank you to anyone who's taken the time to read all this.

OP posts:
misty75 · 26/10/2013 20:34

ImperialFucker, I know, I'm really not worried that he's seeing someone else and his words didn't make me jealous, I just thought Ewwwwwwwww! Yes, sod the rest of the stuff as well. I just sent him a passive-aggressive email back saying 'Of course you can keep them, so glad to hear you're having such a lovely time!' and I won't contact him again.

It's funny though, that was the first and only time he's been openly spiteful without bothering to try and disguise it as something else, and in a way it brought it home to me just how destructive he was and that it had been deliberate and I hadn't just imagined it all. Hence my posting here. And it's all sinking in even more now, thanks to all of you.

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misty75 · 26/10/2013 20:41

betterthanever, I found this helped me work out what might be going on, although I still wasn't confident that I was right until posting on here. I'm sorry to hear of what you've been through, and I hope this helps you too with finding the words to describe what went on, if your ex is anything like this:

www.heartless-bitches.com/rants/manipulator/emotional_abuse.shtml

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cjel · 26/10/2013 20:42

I think you're reacting in a very normal way to coming out of crap relationships. You must get counselling as soon as you can .not cbt.You will learn why you accepted his version of your relationship even though part of you knew it wasn't right for you.

You will be strong, happy and confident again. Learn to trust your inner voise and I bet you will know when you are being treated right, but build the confidence to think that you are worth being treated wellxx

Meerka · 26/10/2013 20:47

what a great link, Misty

"More disturbingly, some abusers can and DO go into therapy as a ploy - to make it LOOK like they are actually working on their own behavior, and accepting responsibility for their actions, when, in fact, the real motive is to arm themselves with distortions of the therapist's words and tools, in an effort to heighten and increase the psychological warfare. "

yeaaaaah. scary.

3mum · 26/10/2013 20:49

Reading what you have said, I think you sound like a lovely, normal, slightly under confident person who was unfortunate enough to fall in with a manipulative twunt. However, you should congratulate yourself that you identified that he was a twunt and that you were right to step back. Good boundaries and good choices. Don't beat yourself up that it took time. It sounds as if he was pretty plausible.

It is hard not to believe that you are at fault when you feel lonely and a bit self critical. Believe me I know. However, the point at which you are able to identify that the person you once loved is manipulative and self-absorbed and not acting in your best interests, though painful, is one of those life turning points. You will never be that vulnerable again.

Find a really supportive counsellor who you can talk to freely and whose agenda is only your benefit (it may mean trying and discarding a couple), be gentle with yourself and remember, we have identified that he is a twunt, that means you don't have to accept that any of the head games he has played are valid in any way.

BasilFucker · 26/10/2013 20:57

He did you a favour confirming that he was a twat, it saved you wondering if it was you.

It so wasn't.

If you're lonely, come on Mumsnet and lark about, you're welcome here whether or not you have children and (most) people don't have a mad control agenda.

TBF some people are so damaged that they actually believe the narrative they've invented. They are the most plausible abusers and you met one - chances are, he genuinely believes that his xw was the abusive one, because he's gone to the counsellor with a set of believable half truths and had the counsellor confirm the narrative he wants. Those people are so much more dangerous than the bog standard liars because they believe their own lies.

CogitoErgoSometimes · 26/10/2013 21:05

OP.. please don't spend too much time analysing his motives or trying to understand him. Write him off as one of those screwed up individuals that has to con and browbeat a woman into staying with him because he's too inadequate to win one over on personality alone.

Loneliness can drive nice, normal, well-adjusted people into doing and tolerating all kinds of unwise things for the sake of a little companionship. (Myself included) I know you're badly rattled by the experience but you did have the good sense and the strength to reject him. Please hold your head high.

misty75 · 26/10/2013 21:06

Meerka, absolutely. I'm sure that a lot of what he said was a distorted version of what he'd learnt in therapy (such as owning your feelings and not making others responsible for them) not to mention the talk about communication (which he used to avoid engaging with what I was actually trying to communicate about). In fact he said he'd learnt all this stuff about how best to communicate from couples-counselling in his marriage. When I said I would not allow him to drag me into a dynamic lifted straight from his previous relationship where there had been deceit and trust issues, as this would cause trust issues between us, it was immediately after that that he got so 'upset' with me for 'breaching his trust by being inconsistent' about whether or not I really wanted a fag (ffs!)

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CogitoErgoSometimes · 26/10/2013 21:09

ffs indeed... Hmm What a pompous pile of old bullshit.

betterthanever · 26/10/2013 21:12

Thanks for the link misty there is plenty that rings true. he is now doing thre bit were he a) blames me and says I was abusive b) looks reasonable and wants to chat to me where as I would never be alone with him ina room again for fear of him and c) tries to get my friends and family on side but they are having non of it.
You mentioned in your OP about your job and you being strong and I was like that, didn't expact I would get so drawn in, having the counselling helped with that. I waited far too long to have professional help. It really is a mind bender but that is what they want so they can do as they wish with/to you and you are just crazy' and mad' if you object.
Good luck OP - I would never have been brave/stong enough to post about it so soon after, you are doing better than you think.

misty75 · 26/10/2013 21:18

Basil, thanks, I'm sure that's the case. I'm so glad I posted here tonight rather than just lurking as I normally do! Yes, Cog, there's no point trying to understand him any further. Just before splitting up I wrote about 15 pages about how I felt he was controlling me and what was upsetting me and emailed it to him. He completely ignored most of what I'd written and kept asking me to explain things that were already in the email over and over again. So yes, definitely time to focus on myself and the good people in my life and move on.

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Meerka · 26/10/2013 21:21

I think you've been incredibly strong too. People like that ooze into your soul with the aim of owning and / or destroying it. Don't think I'm putting that too strongly. It's so subtle and so insidious. You were sensible enough and strong enough to recognise things were very wrong and stop it going further.

misty75 · 26/10/2013 22:07

Thanks so much for your support and advice tonight, everyone Thanks

I'm feeling calmer already. No drinking tonight, either. I think I might join the Brave Babes Battle Bus, too Smile

OP posts:
2013go · 26/10/2013 22:37

Op, I've been in a relationship very, very similar. I'm still not sure which way is up. Sometimes the subtle stuff is soo subtle that even though a part of you knows exactly what it is, the rest of you can't catch up- until it's too late.
You sound fine, you sound sound. Get a better counsellor, a proper one. That's what I'm going to do. I read 'stalking the soul' and 'trauma bonds' after excellent advice from lovely posters here. Both books helped. Some people are just evil and that's that. Until I met him, I didn't believe that was true.
We'll be fine. They'll always be ill. It wasn't your fault.

Twinklestein · 26/10/2013 22:53

You might be interested in this book OP: The Sociopath Next Door

marimeifod · 27/10/2013 02:11

Well done on being able to recognise what was happening and leave in such a comparatively short period of time. That takes massive strength. I agree with others who suggest therapy and also a period of spoiling yourself a bit while you build your strength and confidence back up x

Glenshee · 27/10/2013 10:14

misty75 thanks for posting, and for the link to emotional abuse article. All interesting stuff but like 2013go I don't know which way is up myself so can offer little help. I think you're pretty clear about what's going on actually and doing much better than most of us would. Well done.

misty75 · 27/10/2013 13:11

Thanks for the book recommendations, 2013go and Twinklestein. Betterthanever and Glenshee, glad the article's helpful.

To all those who said well done for walking away, I have to confess it didn't quite end that way. After I sent him the long email explaining what he was doing to me, and he admitted to some of it but said he hadn't done anything wrong and that some of it was for my own good and some of it was because he didn't want to lose me, he said that I was attacking and abusing him and that he couldn't deal with it, and he dumped me. (And I didn't attack him in my email - I wrote it on the assumption that he didn't realise what he was doing and that I could help him by sympathetically explaining it to him.)

And at first I was left feeling that I'd ruined a wonderful relationship by being too selfish and demanding, and kept in touch with him for a while, even suggesting ways that we could try and make it work. Fortunately I got to the point of getting really angry at him and sent him a massive rant, after which he refused to speak to me at all (other than the nasty email about my belongings).

So I wasn't really strong enough to walk away, (although I guess I was strong enough to be too assertive for his liking). I feel ashamed for being so weak. But at least I don't want him back any more. I'm going out for a bit, but will be back later.

OP posts:
Twinklestein · 27/10/2013 14:45

He quit because you were too strong for him, you had too much insight into his behaviour, and he found he couldn't manipulate you. So, you won, he lost, whoever technically ended it.

The book I suggested is horribly American & pop psychology (it analyses the 'sociopath' in the colloquial rather than the strict psychiatric sense), and it's not nearly as good as 'Stalking the Soul' & 'Trauma bonds' - but it does summarise key aspects of the charismatic nut-job:

Charming, intense, self-absorbed, ruthlessly self-serving, controlling, spontaneous/compulsive, passionate/hypersexual, acting outside perceived social/sexual 'norms', without guilt, remorse, shame or conscience, lies, insincerity, never wrong, never apologise, if shown to be wrong they deflect, attack or play the victim, incapable of love, seek to dominate & win within relationships at all costs, feign love & compassion for perceived advantage, hypercritical, use their intelligence to deceive & manipulate rather than to empower, use language to confuse, hypnotise & disempower, lack of self-insight, ultimately may deceive themselves as much as they attempt to deceive others...

misty75 · 27/10/2013 16:24

Thanks, Twinklestein. I've read some of the book on Amazon preview now. I'm sure it will be useful once I've got my head sorted.

Right now though, it just makes me think 'well, how do I know that's not me - I might be the one who's deceived myself and others, if I'd deceived myself, how would I know?'

After all, I've gained kindness, sympathy and support here effectively by lying by omission and allowing you all to think that I was strong enough to walk away from the relationship, when in fact I was a pathetic mess begging him to take me back, and it took me until today to see that I'd actually been dishonest and manipulative - yes, again - by not making this clear from the start.

You lovely people can only go on what I tell you, a therapist or counsellor can only go on what I tell them, if I'm deceiving myself how can I know, is there any way I can ever find out the truth about myself and whether or not I was actually the one at fault?

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cjel · 27/10/2013 16:37

I'm afraid I disagree with you OP. I think you were strong. The fact that you challenged his behaviour you realised it was wrong and I think also knew the risk you were taking by doing it. He may have been the first to say 'your dumped' but I think you had some knowledge that could happen when you sent the email.

YOu are undervaluing your opinion againSmile
A skilled counsellor will be trained to spot deception even self deception and have ways of encouraging you to explore why you do it.

misty75 · 27/10/2013 16:59

If counselling reveals that I'm actually a dishonest, manipulative sociopath and that I've been kidding myself all along that I'm a good honest person I don't know how I'll cope.

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KeepCoolCalmAndCollected · 27/10/2013 17:01

No deception on your part whatsoever.
I was curious as to how it ended (sheer nosiness) - ie. I didn't assume that you had walked away.

Agree with cjel. Essentially you were no good to him once you had challenged/sussed out his horrible damaged and manipulative nature.
Stop being so hard on yourself :-D

cjel · 27/10/2013 17:05

I have only done 3 years of a 5 year course in counselling but I'd say in my limited experience there is nothing I've heard from you that would suggest you are as you feel. You are the honest nice person you think you are who has just had a crap relationship and was aware enough of good and bad to get out of itSmile

misty75 · 27/10/2013 17:11

Thanks Thanks
Sorry, just feeling like the floodgates have opened since starting this thread.

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