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Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Original poster

Major whatwouldyoudo crisis

47 replies

shimmy21 · 04/07/2006 20:16

Background - dh comes from another country where you can be put in prison for debt. SIL is a dysfunctional/waster/liar/manipulator who has repeatedly run up large debts often on her family's credit cards and expects to be helped out. In dh's culture giving money to family members is expected, especially when one of them (dh) lives in the West and is therefore rich.

This time against dh's explicit instructions SIL has spent the equivalent of 6 grand on house improvements with not a penny to rub together of her own. Of course she expects dh to pay

We are not rich and have debts of our own that we are managing. This is a whopping great lump of money for us that we cannot afford (and don't bloody want) to give.

But if we don't at least try to help pay SIL could go to prison and she has 2 children (with no father). Dh will never be able to see his family on good terms again and the rest of dh's family will be left to foot the bill (the rest are lovely sensible but not rich either).

Tbh we could afford to give some from an inheritance I got last year but the money we had put down for our own children's future. If we give it away they lose out. Also dh told her before she did this that he had no money this year and wouldn't be able to help if she overspent. If we give her anything she will just keep on spending and spending our money to fund her lazy fat arse not working. If we don't dh's lovely innocent nieces lose out.

Oh what the f~~k would you do?

OP posts:
bramblina · 04/07/2006 20:26

I'm with you, and if you keep forking out she will too. Unfortunately maybe the only way for her to learn is finally suffer the consequences herself. It sounds harsh, but, you should not have to forfeit your inheritance and your los lose out just so her los come up smelling of roses. I know it's not you their fault but it's not yours either. Plus she was told...what more can you do. Good luck.

micegg · 04/07/2006 20:26

What a nightmare! The most obvious thing is to say no as it will hopefully teach her a lesson. But I understand that would be hard given what you said and how it could cause lots of trouble for your husband who is already so far from his family by the sound of things. How would it go down if your DH offered a contrbution (say £500)? Would this be sufficent to appear to be 'helping out' but also make her realise you cant keep bailing her out. This is very difficult. You dont say where your Dh is from. Maybe someone on here from the same country would be able to advise better? I really feel for you. Sorry not much help!

NomDePlume · 04/07/2006 20:29

Her behaviour is DISGUSTING and hugely irresponsible, but, I think if I coud afford to give the money, I would. Not for SIL but for her children, who may well otherwise have to see their mum go to prison . I would give her the money but make it absolutely clear to her and the rest of DH's family that this is the last handout she is getting from you. If she gets into anymore debt it is her responsibility (or that of other family members) to resolve it. You have done you bit.

yomellamoHelly · 04/07/2006 20:29

I have a brother who has had money problems for the last 15 years. He's always been bailed out by various family members and none of them has ever been repayed. Then despite their generosity he's proceeded to take the piss by "borrowing" things which are never returned.

Hard though it is I'd therefore say put your own family first to break this cycle of dependency and when the inevitable happens help your nieces in any way you can (short of bailing their mother out).

Earlybird · 04/07/2006 20:30

Is your dh's family upset with SIL? Or do they view you and dh as a never ending supply of cash? Does she live so far away that no family member was aware that she was spending such large amounts of money? They perhaps could have done something to stop her, or at least alerted your dh to the fact that she was ignoring his instructions?

IMO, you must do something serious, or she will continue to do this. I'd either send her money in such small irregular dribs/drabs (as you can "afford" it) that she is uncomfortable and understands that you don't have pots of money sitting around. Or, I'd get her to sign over part of the equity in her house to you and dh. At least then you've helped her, but have also done something to safeguard the inheritance of your dd's.

Blu · 04/07/2006 20:32

Tell the rest of dh's family that you REALLY now have no money left, but that you will go into debt yourselves in order to share the cost equally with other family members? (if they are obliged to feel some of the pain of this, they might then use their proximity to her to keep a tighter rein on her?)

Send dh over to sort it all out and get her to sell her house and buy a smaller cheaper one, paying off the debt in the process and then explain to his family that housing prices are huge in the west and he cannot support his sister spending more money than he himself spends?

Offer to have the neices while she is in prison? (how long would it be?)

AttilaTheMeerkat · 04/07/2006 20:32

No money from you should be forthcoming. The cash you have saved is for your children and not to cover her debts. You as a family unit cannot keep bailing her out and saving her from herself because no-one will have any money left at this rate. You cannot rescue someone who does not ultimately want to be saved.

Okay so your DH may come from a culture where she can be put into prison for debt. This fact is being used against you. She may be put in prison for debt, she may not. She needs to face up the consequences of her actions. Everyone who has given her money to clear debts have avoided her seeing this and it does her no favours ultimately.

You bail you SIL out = she'll keep getting into debt. She has shown a repeated pattern of indebtedness after being bailed out. How many more times does this have to happen?. Everyone to date has bailed her out so she does not feel the consequences of her actions.

The whole family need to stand up to SIL and say that they cannot bail her out any longer. The same answer to this situation would apply no matter where she and you all lived. Cultural differences therefore do not come into it.

englandflag · 04/07/2006 20:32

I think I'd go with Micegg's suggestion i.e. contribute some but not all, max £1000. This will keep the family onside but will demonstrate to all concerned that you and your DH are not a bottomless pit of money to be called on whenever someone gets into a tight spot. Am so on your behalf.

annh · 04/07/2006 20:32

I wouldn't give her the money because it is just postponing the inevitable. She will overspend again and one day you will simply not be able to help her out and your nieces will suffer anyway. Sounds really harsh, but let her go to prison and use whatever money you might have to help her girls.

Blu · 04/07/2006 20:33

I think demanding a share in the house is a reasonable route.

Original poster
shimmy21 · 04/07/2006 20:33

thanks for replies. I don't really want to mention his country (although some MNers know it)because that would make us quite identifiable in RL.

I strongly feel the mother hen protective thing for my own kids and really don't want to give her a penny but my biggest worry is how the rest of his family will suffer if we don't. A spell in prison couldn't make her any worse than she is now, but the rest of the family just don't deserve this and would give me and dh their last crust of bread if we asked for anything.

OP posts:
SenoraPostrophe · 04/07/2006 20:34

I would do more or less as nomdeplume suggests. If I had the money, I'd give it but make it clear you expect to be paid back eventually (even though obviously you don't) and let everyone know you won't do it again. that way you have given fair warning and if it does happen again it hopefully won't result in your dh never speaking to his family again.

actually also, seeing as the money was for home improvements, presumably some went on furniture? I'd make her take that back or sell it first.

SenoraPostrophe · 04/07/2006 20:36

"...would give me and dh their last crust of bread if we asked for anything"

that is lovely. it is worth way more than 6k.

Original poster
shimmy21 · 04/07/2006 20:38

dh actually does own a third share in the house anyway (not that we would/could ever realise that share because it is the kids' home). His initial reaction to this has been to tell SIL that she will have to sell up but both she and other share holder (other SIL wont contemplate).

I've been thinking about a partial donation too. £500 seems to little to make a difference to the debt but it seems all we could afford.

OP posts:
AttilaTheMeerkat · 04/07/2006 20:40

"A spell in prison couldn't make her any worse than she is now, but the rest of the family just don't deserve this and would give me and dh their last crust of bread if we asked for anything".

You're right of course - the rest of the family do not deserve this. They are also not responsible for her actions.

They also along with your good self don't deserve to have this woman squandering their cash and not paying any of it back or having any intention of doing same.

The cycle of dependency between SIL and family has to be broken now or you'll all end up in an even bigger mess.

Do not under any circumstances give her any more money, money that you will never see again. Five hundred pounds would perhaps be regarded as a small fortune in the developing world and such a sum would give them the impression that you are rolling in cash which is patently not the case. Therefore no money should be paid out to her by you.

Original poster
shimmy21 · 04/07/2006 20:40

unfortunately the improvements were a kitchen and bathroom so nothing moveable that we could sell

OP posts:
annh · 04/07/2006 20:43

But what happens if you give what little money you can ill afford and SIL ends up in prison anyway? Or having to sell the house in order to pay her debts? She'll end up in the same position (either imprisoned or homeless) and you will be poorer and unable to help your nieces? Sorry, I sound like a heartless bch but I just don't think that you can actually help her out of this mess.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 04/07/2006 20:43

Let SIL see the consequences of her actions. She needs to get into trouble for her indebtedness.

I guarantee that if you send any money at all now you will just be contributing to the problem, not solving it. Past experience is not telling you otherwise.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 04/07/2006 20:46

What's to stop her doing this again - as it stands currently nothing because she has never faced the consequences of being in debt. You will be tapped for more cash, I guarantee it if you send any money now.

Do not send her any money!!. You need to consider your own family unit here.

SenoraPostrophe · 04/07/2006 20:50

attila and ann - you're missing rather a big cultural point here I think. that's the advice I'd give a person with british family, but this is different don't you think?

Original poster
shimmy21 · 04/07/2006 20:51

I'm feeling even more confused now but still just as angry with SIL. But thanks MN. it really does help to talk.

my fear is that this is going to be a big bone of contention between dh and me when he gets back (he's there ATM). He says he doesn't want to give a penny but I know he will change his mind to help the rest of the family. If I put my foot down and disagree about the amount I will look like the greedy, selfish enemy.

We have always prided ourselves on not being materialistic and valuing other things higher than money but obviously when it comes to the crunch I'm not materialistic until it's my money on the line

OP posts:
SherlockLGJ · 04/07/2006 20:53

There are three types of need................

Need........

Greed............

and

Insanity.............

Guess which one your SIL fits into.

Agree, send limited funds, make a big thing about this being the very last of your money and retire from the equation.

Original poster
shimmy21 · 04/07/2006 21:00

Actually SIL probably fits in to all 3 of those categories, SLGJ.

OP posts:
AttilaTheMeerkat · 04/07/2006 21:01

Hi SP,

Re your comment:-
"you're missing rather a big cultural point here I think. that's the advice I'd give a person with british family, but this is different don't you think?"

In a word no. People will take and take advantage of people's good nature and when it comes to debt you cannot continue to bail the person out regardless of where in the world they live. Where does it end, bailing out the person does not break the cycle of dependency. Debt is no respector of culture or person.

If this man does not want to give out his cash then he should not and should stick to his guns. How else will she see the consequences of her actions?. If the money was paid these people will be called upon again to bail SIL out. How many more times and or chances will she get. SIL knows she is onto a good thing here and realises also these people are a soft touch. Why do you think SIL is behaving like this?. Also if any funds are forthcoming then it just reinforces the perception that all people in the West are rolling in money which is patently not the case.

This cash which is proposed to be sent is for their own children - they will miss out for an unworthy cause.

AttilaTheMeerkat · 04/07/2006 21:06

From Shimmys initial posting:-

"SIL is a dysfunctional/waster/liar/manipulator who has repeatedly run up large debts often on her family's credit cards and expects to be helped out".

She expects to be helped out!!. This is why I am adopting such a hard line attitude here. Debt does not care what culture you're from.

You cannot help someone like this by trying to save them from themselves.