Major whatwouldyoudo crisis

[shimmy21]

Background - dh comes from another country where you can be put in prison for debt. SIL is a dysfunctional/waster/liar/manipulator who has repeatedly run up large debts often on her family's credit cards and expects to be helped out. In dh's culture giving money to family members is expected, especially when one of them (dh) lives in the West and is therefore rich.

This time against dh's explicit instructions SIL has spent the equivalent of 6 grand on house improvements with not a penny to rub together of her own. Of course she expects dh to pay

We are not rich and have debts of our own that we are managing. This is a whopping great lump of money for us that we cannot afford (and don't bloody want) to give.

But if we don't at least try to help pay SIL could go to prison and she has 2 children (with no father). Dh will never be able to see his family on good terms again and the rest of dh's family will be left to foot the bill (the rest are lovely sensible but not rich either).

Tbh we could afford to give some from an inheritance I got last year but the money we had put down for our own children's future. If we give it away they lose out. Also dh told her before she did this that he had no money this year and wouldn't be able to help if she overspent. If we give her anything she will just keep on spending and spending our money to fund her lazy fat arse not working. If we don't dh's lovely innocent nieces lose out.

Oh what the f~~k would you do?

Atlla I think you are right and wrong about that.
Yes SIL is taking the P~SS. No, she will never learn. She's 48 FGS and has done this repeatedly often hiding it until the point that bailiffs are at the door.

But the culture does make a difference because it changes expectations of what is acceptable. In that country dh (being male) is expected to be the family breadwinner. In that country (where there is no social security system or benefits of any sort does not) family means the extended not nuclear family and all members are supported (including elderly parents and nieces and nephews). In this context the thought of not helping is shocking and shameful.

Hi Shimmy,

At least you acknowledge she is taking the mickey. However, she is using the cultural issues in their country against you all and playing it to her advantage. Being the black sheep is shameful in many cultures but helping her repeatedly like this is not helping her or anyone around her. Surely they can see that?. Cultural differences therefore do not come into it.

I promise you also this will not be the last time you are called upon (they probably see you as the rich westerners) to chip in. Bailing her out benefits no-one; it is not shameful to admit that she cannot be helped any more. This is the argument I would put to this family.

SIL is no longer with her husband (has he been spoken to about his ex wife?).

'This time against dh's explict instructions...'

If you pay now, she'll do it again. Can you afford to bail her out next time?

And the next?

And the next?

And the next?

Agree with Blu's 8:32 post

Yes Atilla, you're right in what you say. The difficult factor is how dh could leave the rest of his family to suffer and pick up the pieces. It's very easy for dh and I to live so far away and ignore SIL's mess. But the rest of the family are there. They would not sit by and see the family home (built by their parents) being sold, so they will fork out to bail out SIL once again whether we agree with it or not. Then we have the quandary of helping with our share or not.

BTW, SIL has no xdh. This is a major major cultural taboo in that country and another example of what I suppose is SIL's instability to put it kindly. (Both pregnancies were kept secret and both children pretty much negleceted ever since by her.) This is partly why dh and I feel such a responsibilty for the children and have supported and helped them over the years.

Perhaps the limited amount is an acceptable compromise but only if you get the family who are near her to try to supervise her spending so that this cannot happen again. Also it is imperative that family as well as sil understand that this is the last money you will give to help out for her debts.

You could perhaps agree (privately with dh) that you may give money in the future but only to prevent your nieces from suffering any hardship, ie buy them schoolbooks perhaps? Whatever happens don't let your los do without just for sil's benefit.

Seems to me in future that your dh's family must monitor what SIL does very closely, and if possible, stop her from running up these bills.

I wish we could Early bird. God alone knows how she managed to hide a new kitchen and bathroom being fitted when the rest of the family live next door! Apparently she wouldn't let them in the house because she said it was 'messy'!

Then when dh arrives from the Uk she opens the doors and says 'Ta dah!' and holds out her hand...

Hi Shimmy,

Re your comment:-
"The difficult factor is how dh could leave the rest of his family to suffer and pick up the pieces. It's very easy for dh and I to live so far away and ignore SIL's mess. But the rest of the family are there. They would not sit by and see the family home (built by their parents) being sold, so they will fork out to bail out SIL once again whether we agree with it or not. Then we have the quandary of helping with our share or not".

The family cannot keep acting as her enablers, they will fail and have done so to date because she has carried on regardless of consequence and they have continued to bail her out. Its her debt therefore her responsibility. SIL sees them all as a soft touch and will take them for every penny they have. If they continue as they are they themselves run the risk of getting into financial difficulties. Their house may well end up getting sold to pay her creditors.

Why haven't her credit cards been taken away from her?. Why hasn't she been told (presumably by her parents) to get a job and support her children.

SIL needs to stand on her own two feet and become responsible. You know that. Enabling this problem to continue helps no-one least of all SIL and her children. Bailing her out shows her there are no consequences to be faced for her actions - you say yourself she expects to be helped.

I feel for you because you are in a difficult position but you need to be firm with them and SIL. Someone needs to take a stand here and say enough is enough. Any money you send (and therefore I would not send any money - you will regret it if you do) will be swallowed up never to be seen by you again. You will not be repaid.

"Then when dh arrives from the Uk she opens the doors and says 'Ta dah!' and holds out her hand..."

What a charming woman NOT.

The family are being taken for fools and they believe her lies. She knows that she will be bailed every time she runs to them saying, "help me".

Hope your DH slapped her hand hard.

Attila, to answer a few of your points. I realise the family are enabling her and have had this argument before on past occasions with dh and her family. What I'm not able to do is influence their decision to repeatedly help. So they will bail her out whether I like it or agree with or not.

credit cards - just like in this country they seem very happy to give credit cards to people who cannot pay for them. There are also unscrupulous money lenders preying on idiots like SIL. She has also stolen her sisters credit card and run up debts in sister's name (which of course sister ends up paying off). Now the money is owed to the builder who probably took her word that the family would pay.

Get a job - yes, the family has told her repeatedly to get a job and she has started many jobs, worked for a day or two and then left for a whole number of spurious reasons. In fact she has been saying 'but I'm looking for a job' for the past ten years to justify spending on expensive clothes, makeup, socialising and spending almost no time at all with her daughters.

And yes. I am not a violent person but it's lucky I'm not in that country now or I would be the one in prison. For assault.

So in this culture your husband not helping out his sister would be considered a worse "crime" than the fact that she is a spendthrift, neglects her children, had both children outside of marriage which Shimmy said is a big taboo in that country and has stolen and fraudulently used a credit card?! I realise your husband is caught in the middle here and it's impossible to play one side off against another but don't your cultural norms and the needs of your children count for anything?

I would not give her another penny.

I would doubt she would be put in prison, what with the kids and all, but she really needs to grow up and be responsible for herself.

No way should you spend your inheritence on this, I am sure whoever gifted you would not have intended for you to spend the money in this way!

Yes, now you put it like that AnnH it sounds quite ridiculous, doesn't it? I suppose the truth be told, it is the culture in dh's family that is the problem not the country.

Anyway, thanks to you and everyone like Attila who have given me much food for thought, kept me sane tonight while I'm sitting here fuming on my own and helped me clarify what I say to dh.

I think I go along with the view that we give a token donation of around £500 and then we could stand back. If it really looks like a crisis for the kids we could look into buying her share of the house.

And yes, I realise that we would never see that money again.

Thanks all and goodnight.

Cultural expectations notwithstanding, what happens when the family (I mean the whole family) literally run out of money with which to bail out an irresponsible member ?

Surely this must happen at some point, in some families ?

What happens next ? Do the rest of the family who are able to take out loans ? What happens when they can no longer do this and/or are unable to make the repayments on such loans themselves ?

What is considered the greater cultural/familial crime ? To let an irresponsible family member face up to the repercussions of their own irresponsibility - or, by helping her out, condemn the rest of the family, including innocent children and dependent elderly relatives to poverty and/or malnutrition ?

Sorry .... I obviously don't know the exact circumstances of your DH's family but do you see what I'm saying. In cultures where family duty is all, where do you draw the line ? Who is considered most "deserving" ?

When there is only so much money to go round, would the well-being, health and nutrition of the elderly and young not take priority over a spendthrift ?

This must happen ..... there must be families where such choices have to be made. What would happen if, in a few months time, an elderly relation needed a life saving operation through no fault of their own and yet all available resources had been used on this stupid woman ?

Shimmy,

There are some very well written and wise recent posts here. I would suggest you both re-read these and talk to your DH about the issues therein.

You become her enabler if any money is sent and your DH as well does not currently want to give her any cash. Helping her like this does not teach her any responsibility - it makes the problem go away temporarily until the next time she gets into trouble (and there will be a next time going by past experience). Five hundred pounds would be perhaps seen as a large amount to someone in that nation and SIL is thinking oh everyone around me is a soft touch and I'll be bailed out yet again. There are no consequences for her actions. She knows she will get away with it yet again.

That money was put aside for your own children - they will miss out for an undeserving cause. If the position was reversed you think she would help - I would say not. She has no honour.

If they bail her yet again you as your own family unit must have no part of it. You will deeply regret sending them any funds.

What has past experience with her taught them - nothing evidently. Someone has to take a stand and say no more as of now. She stole her sister's credit card and used it fraudulently!. Again the debt was paid and again no consequence was given for SIL's actions. SIL could have been made criminally responsible. Her family are enabling this to continue because they let her irresponsible actions continue.

Cultural issues therefore do not come into it - debt is no respector of culture and person.

shimmy21, i can appreciate the horrible dilemma you're in. your sil needs to be made to take responsibility and i think it's also up to your dh's family to help out. i find it very hard to believe that they didn't know what was happening. they must have seen builders walking in and out of the house, and bath / kitchen stuff coming in. i mean, how can you hide a bath!?!?!?!? so i think they also have to start taking responsibility.

if it were me, i'd get them all to share the debt (your sil taking 2 parts, so pays twice as much) and hold a 'family forum' where she is made to see that this is not on and will not ever ever ever be bailed out again. i wouldn't want her to go to prison because her kids will lose out - again.

i think the whole family is way too soft on her which is why she's getting away with it. they ALL need to take responsibiliy, but most of all, her.

Sorry haven't read all thread so maybe this has already been said. I have a father who is crap with money and have been through a few things a little like this (not £6K though thank goodness).

I would tell her that she will have to take the consequences, but that you will look after her children while she is in prison.

Sorry, but I would not give ANY of my personal inheritance to someone who is knowingly irresponsible w/money despite numerous warnings.

Thanks for the messages.

I've just spoken again to dh on the phone and he is still adamant that SIL will have to find the money herself, so hopefully dh and I will be on the same side of that argument.

He is also saying that he will never be going back so he will be missing out on his family.

Just to answer the secret bath question - the houses are back corner to back corner so front onto different streets and the rest of dh's family work long hours, so it's possible that the builders going in and out the front would not have been seen. The children (teenagers now actually) were sworn to secrecy by their mum so the poor things have been dragged into family rows once again.

Oh dear, I really can see how difficult this is for you. You are being put in the position where you are being asked to be the strong one and make the difficult decision. It sounds as thought you feel that although your DH doesn?t really want to give money, he will eventually capitulate.
And you sort of agree with Attila that you will not really be able to help her as she will keep on behaving badly and you will keep on bailing her out. So the difficulty is not that you know deep down that it?s the wrong thing to give any money (it really is- for all the reasons people have so eloquently outlines); but that it will cause rifts and problems if you don?t do what is expected.
I know it's hard, but you need to do what is best for your family. Extended family are not your reponsibility and they should be treated well if they deserve to be treated well. I am sure there are lots of people here who could tell stories of relations draging them down and making demands and behaving awfuly- and the truth of the matter is that these situations carry on and on until you decide to stop them. Contrary to the guilt that will/is laid on you and the rubish spouted about blood being thicker than water people (including family) earn respect and feelings of good will- its not just automatic becasue they are related to you. Think about it- would you or your dh even begin to contemplate this if it was a friend?
I do understand the pressure that comes from the expectation of how families shuuld behave to one another- but its just that pressure. Unsuportive families have a tendancy to play those 'should' cards a lot. If they can't say now to her thats their look out, but just because they are tied in to feelings of expectation and guilt it does not mean you have to go along with it. You have your own choices to make even if they are very hard- I hope you find the stregnth.