I think I need to have a difficult conversation with DH

[ThistleDown]

As the title suggests I think I need to have a difficult conversation with DH but I don't know where to begin. There is a back story here - 9 years ago when DS 3 was 4 weeks old DH went away for a fortnight with an organisation he is part of (as a hobby). When he came home he had a really bad case of 'mentionitis' about a woman that he met there. She was literally all he could talk about and the mentioning of her name started when he was away, he would phone home each evening. He told me they had slept in the same place (just the two of them) on at least two occassions. Once home he was texting her a lot but deleting the messages.

I should mention that while he was away I was diagnosed with PND and had no strength to deal with the situation as I probably should have. He was not happy at me being on AD's and actually said "Can I not go away without coming home to you on happy pills?!"

About a week after he came home I told him that I thought she was interested in him. He seemed horrified but I told him if he didn't put a stop to their communications I would. He said he was sorry, hadn't realised how it would appear, they were supporting each other, etc and that he would put a stop to it. A few weeks later I intercepted an email from her to him which was pretty innocuous but ended with her saying that she was sorry she hadn't met up with him at an event they were both supposed to be attending but she couldn't make it and that she missed him.

I hid the email and sat on it for a couple of days before replying. I said that her contacting him outwith their organisation was inappropriate and that any communication should be kept to official meetings. I can't remember what else I wrote as it was so long ago but I tried hard not to come across as a harridan!

I never said anything to DH and swept it under the carpet. Life has carried on since then and we now have 4 DS.

A lot of water has passed under the bridge but I have always kept my ear open for any mention of her. In the last 9 years he has never mentioned her but occassionally mentioned a 'someone' which I knew to be her. I also heard from friends who are also in the same organisation that this woman likes to go after married men and has a bit of a reputation for it.

Everything was fine until 3 weeks ago. DH went on a training thing for a week and once home let slip that she was there. She is now higher up than him but since his return home her name has been mentioned a few times and I feel really uncomfortable. He is due to go away again in two weeks for a weekend and has said she is running the event. I think he thinks I have forgotten about her or her name will mean nothing to me now.

I want to tell him how I feel but after 9 years am I going to appear unhinged? I have no proof that anything actually happened 9 years ago only an instinct but do I want to know after all this time? This is horrendous and I feel really tearful and don't know what to do. Do I let sleeping dogs lie or do I now, after almost a decade, ask DH if he had an affair?

Equally, this could all be in your imagination. You haven't discovered anything inappropriate in 9 years, except a vague reference to her missing him. In other words, it is what you don't know that is bothering you, that you think your DH has a secret he is keeping from you. If you feel that strongly about it, I cannot think why you have not talked to him about it before now.

And why assume she is chasing after him? The "going after married men" comment above is vile - why is it assumed that women chase married men when so often its the men chasing the women for attention? Its so difficult for women in traditionally male dominated areas, without other women labelling them as married man chasers, simply because they have the temerity to mix outwith all female circles outwith work.

I do a sport as a hobby, and so do several female friends, in fact it is where how I met DH. Most of my female friends do this thing of smiling politely and being forcedly polite to older, married men but inwardly cringe. Ditto that if they get carried away and annoyingly contact you by Facebook or whatever (as sadly some men assume you fancy them if you even accidentally glance in their direction, never mind say hello to them). There is no way I or they would be in the slightest interested in an older married man. Especially one with 4 DCs to support. tbh if we were single, we could do better than that. We are not there to meet old married men, but to do our hobby.

I am sure there are plenty of single men of this woman's own age who do the hobby. Do you even know if she is single? Instead of confronting DH about these fears, would it not be an option to come along to the hobby once and meet the woman in question and see how the land lies? Is she good at the hobby and therefore possibly has a very legitimate interest in pursuing it, entirely unrelated to what your DH is or isn't doing?

I see. Have you decided yet what you're going to do/say?

Added to say that this reminds me of someone I know. Her DP developed an attachment to my friend through their interest in a hobby. She is very pretty so this happens from time to time. She confided in me that she wasn't in the slightest bit interested in him, as she didn't find him physically attractive, never mind having no interest in someone with a live in girlfriend (if they do it to an ex, they'll do it to you). But that she saw him as a friend. She is in fact happily married herself.

Unfortunately, the girlfriend of the man in question has made a total fool of herself over this. She has gone into her DP's Facebook and deleted both my friend and me. She has taken up the sport and goes along to everything, literally hanging onto some appendage of her man at all times. She actually refuses to speak to either of us (or several other women) if we are not accompanied by a man (when she is perfectly pleasant). My friend has invited them as a couple to dinner parties but has been refused.

And all this is in her head. And possibly her DP's. But certainly not my friend's!

Lessmiss. I am sorry if that comment offended you but it is exactly what was said to me by people who know her. I am just passing on what I have been told about this particular person.

Yes she is single.

Yes it may be my imagination which is partly why I haven't done anything in 9 years. However, I don't think it is. Whether physical or emotional There is a possibility something happened.

No I can't go along. Chances of she and I meeting are very slight. It would have to be a big event where partners were invited for me to have any reason to be there. As I said she lives far from us.

Francesca no I haven't made any decision. What if it is all in my head? DH would be very hurt. But what if its not? There are other females, all ages, married, single but not one other makes alarm bells ring for me. Only this one person. As an aside, he has not mentioned the two emails from her yet although he has seen them as he had the email page open . I have to go now but will be back.

I agree it was a mistake on the OP's part trying to police this relationship and thinking that warning off the woman herself and making numbers and e mails disappear was the right way to go about it, because as ever, the woman herself isn't the problem. Even if she is predatory (and there's no reason why she shouldn't be, I've known predators of both sexes in the workplace, but so what?) no woman's going to get anywhere with a man who doesn't want to be unfaithful.

I don't think this is 'all in the OP's head' though and feel quite concerned when anyone suggests this to an OP who's got legitimate fears and concerns. Some lurkers might be getting that sort of crap from unfaithful partners after all- they don't need that sort of gaslighting here.

Her husband was deleting texts, got inappropriately close to this other woman and was behaving like a complete arse after he'd shared sleeping quarters with a woman who he never stopped talking about. I understand why she was worried about that, but I think the whole thing needs to be aired now and all the secrets laid bare, because even if nothing has gone on in the 9 years since, an atmosphere of lies, secrecy, mistrust, tampering with communications and fear is disastrous for a relationship.

Unfortunately the deleting texts and the secrecy is what makes this so difficult and generally would suggest he was guilty of something, possibly just getting too close to someone or at worse case a fling 9 years ago. I don't think it is all in your head but there may be genuine reasons for the dishonesty. There also may not be, but I know I am 'very good' at dwelling on things and making a mountain out of a molehill. I am a worrier!

Do you actually want to know if something happened, what would you do if you did find out given that it was so long ago?

Even if you decide to draw a line under what did or did not happen 9 years ago it is very difficult to forget. I am not sure how you go about that but only you can decide which way you want to go, you may never really know what, if anything, has happened. I think your husbands reaction to you talking to him will give you part of the answer.

I don't understand the whole "maybe it was in my imagination" thing.

You KNOW something happened between them.

Whether there was sexual touching or not is irrelevant.

They had an emotional affair 9 years ago (at the very least. They shared sleeping quarters when they were away and clearly fancied each other??).

Your husband is a very shit husband though.

The way he abused you for being ill with PND and the way he abandoned you go to away for a fortnight with two small children and a newborn and the way he rubbed your face in his new girlfriend on his return, all speak of a man you should be having a much more difficult conversation with than "did you shag this woman 9 years ago".

Join I think abused is a bit strong, he wasn't happy about it but he wasn't abusive and he did apologise for his comments later. When he went away it was with my knowledge and consent. At the time he was new to the organisation and it was very much a "you must attend this" kind of deal. The children were 9 and 4 and I thought I would manage on my own. My Mum came here for a week and my friend for a weekend to help out but I didn't forsee the PND. We both admit it was the wrong decision at that time.

We have been together for almost 20 years, I wouldn't say he was a full time shit husband. This was a one off thing that happened 9 years ago. It lasted two weeks maximum before I told her to bog off. I do think he knows I did this, I don't doubt she will have told him that at some point. With the benefit of hindsight I would not deal with it now the way I did then but what is done is done.

The secrecy thing is the main issue now I think, from both of us. I haven't spent the last 9 years thinking about this everyday, long periods of time can go past when I give it no thought but then something is said or an event comes up that I know she is part of and the doubt and worry creep back in. This has been the reason for my head being full of it again now, he was with her for a week just 3 weeks ago. I also have a photo of her in my dining room now as they had a group photo done. This photo is not in a frame but inside a folded piece of paper on top of a cabinet. DH plans to frame it and put it in the premises belonging to the organisation along with another similar photo from a previous event.

DH is now at a point in the organisation where he is fairly high up and so will have contact with and from her. Can I deal with this without saying anything to him? No I don't think I can. In one week he will be in her company again for a weekend and that knowledge is causing me emotional pain.

I just have to decide how I am going to deal with it.

Do you have a hobby (paid or otherwise) that is this time-consuming and requires this much investment? If not, what would his stance be if you did? How would he accommodate it within his lifestyle?

Can you say what it is you fear about having this difficult conversation? That might help you to confront those fears.

I thought he went away for the fortnight as part of his hobby?

It "went on" for 2 weeks before they both knew you were on to them.

I think you know that that was far from being the end of their affair.

The way he treated you at that time is pretty close to unforgivable, and that includes the affair he was rubbing in your face while you had PND and blaming you for being sick.

The fact that you were too traumatised and unwell to deal with it properly at the time doesn't mean you can't try to deal with it now.

Although the intervening 9 years of lies on both your parts and their continued relationship is something I can't see that there is any happy outcome to.

Francesca I am starting a new hobby that will be fairly time consuming and he is fully supportive and has offered to help when he can. He is quite happy for me to do this and if there is ever a clash between the two we will deal with that when it happens.

What do I fear? Opening Pandora's Box I guess. By starting a talk about this I could be opening up a whole new world of hurt for both of us. I'm scared my fears will be confirmed. At the moment this is all in my head, just a feeling I have. By talking I am putting it out there and making it 'real'.

Join this is my life, my husband, my family. What did or did not happen between them is what I have to deal with. My PND and his going away have been dealt with between us and are no longer battles I need to have. The fact that I have a deep seated fear he cheated or at the very least formed an inappropriate attachment to her is the can of worms I have to deal with now. I just need to find the strength and courage to do that.

Well I think the words you chose there are quite illuminating- or if they are a direct quote- his words are illuminating.

He has offered to help when he can

But you've brought 4 kids up and withstood his frequent absences to do with this hobby even when I'm sure there were many occasions when you couldn't spare his contribution. Be honest, what do you really think will happen if he has one of these commitments and it clashes with the thing you want to do?

To my mind, he should be saying "You've supported me all these years in my hobby, so if there's a clash I'll be the one who gives up my thing. It's only fair."

Now to the Pandora's box.

I'd be a bit sceptical to say the least that your relationship has been as intimate and honest as it could have been the past 9 years, living under the weight of so many secrets.

Could this not be an opportunity to achieve that, at last?

I guess it depends on what sort of marriage you want and whether once the truth comes out, you could forgive admitted infidelity? The strange thing is that by not confronting it at the time, you have forgiven it really. But you didn't want him to know that you had. Have a think about that because it's a bit of a head-fuck isn't it?

Maybe it's also because you've got to the point where you couldn't forgive any more lies? So if he lied again, you'd have to do something about that- and you don't really want to.

I don't see this as a can of worms so much as an opportunity to get some honesty into your marriage and at the same time, equalise the power.

I do think having got away with an affair and knowing his wife thought it was her responsibility to chase away other women has probably had an effect on how your husband views you and his marriage. I'd be surprised if that didn't show out in a myriad of different ways.

Firstly - bad choice of wording on my part! When I said he is willing to help when he can I meant with the hobby :) He wants to support me with that. I have brought up 4 kids (now aged 18 - 7) but I haven't done it alone, far from it. I have had weekends away too, although not as many as him which he is supportive of.

If there is a clash we will look at what the clashes involve. If it were something mandatory for me he would accept that and stay home and vice versa. Thankfully we do synchronise diaries often and talk about upcoming events to see if that weekend is clear. If the boys need both of us here for whatever reason then we are both here.

Following that fortnight away 9 years ago it was 6 months before he went again and only because that was mandatory. He did not do the annual trip again until our youngest was 2 (so 4 years later) and only then for a week and he rang home often.

To give you perspective he has been away for 3 weekends this year with two more to come. He was away for a week over summer and is just home after another week, however this second week will not be done again. As for next summer, we will discuss that nearer the time but if he goes it will be for a week though it is likely he will not go at all as he went this year.

However, I have to agree that this whatever it was has been a shadow over us. I think you are right in saying that I have forgiven without trying. But have I really? If that were true I could have moved on long ago. It's the not knowing that has been the head-fuck.

I think you'd be surprised if you met DH, he is a quiet man who will avoid confrontation at all costs. Putting this (huge) thing to one side he is my best friend and I love him dearly.

You are right again though - I could not forgive this again. If it were to happen now my reactions and actions would be very different to what I did actually do. Close RL friends know what my fears are and I am meeting one of them tomorrow to have a chat and get some support.

How on earth am I going to start this conversation with DH? I don't want to be accusatory in case I am wrong but we do need to talk, especially if she is going to be back in his life however minimally.

Yes I realised he offered to 'help when he could' with accommodating your hobby. I was pointing out that you never did 'offer to help when you could' with his hobby. That sort of bargain didn't even enter the equation. You just agreed to him doing it and got on with everything else that had to be done in his absence. Try to see the difference between the two. It's hitting me right between the eyes. It's a subtle but at the same time startling difference to the way your individual aspirations are accommodated in this marriage.

I can see how the uncertainty has played havoc with your mind, possibly much more so than if it had all been brought out into the open 9 years ago and dealt with.

I wouldn't be in the least bit surprised that your husband is a quiet man who will avoid confrontation at all costs

Most of the men I know who've been unfaithful are just so. It's a shocking myth that adulterers are always good-looking, confident, self-assured 'players'. In my experience, the ones most at risk are men who (because they aren't used to female attention) literally wet their pants if a woman shows interest and even if it scares them a bit, are so useless at being assertive that their boundaries are crap and they don't 'nip it in the bud'. Then, because they get addicted to the attention, they don't want to put up any boundaries.

How to start the conversation? I think before you think of that you have to work out whether you intend to be honest yourself. Do you?

Also, although I've said that you'd be best advised to reflect on the convo afterwards and not give your decision, have you worked out what you'll do when faced with the various hypotheticals of this? i.e. if he completely denies it all/admits a 9 year affair/admits an emotional affair/admits a sexual affair that ended 9 years ago/admits other affairs?

"I think you'd be surprised if you met DH, he is a quiet man who will avoid confrontation at all costs."

That's what I presumed too.

People who avoid confrontation at all costs are probably my least favourite kind of person.

They tend to be dishonest and passive aggressive.

It's a good quality in a person at all.

I don't think you could possibly have forgiven an affair you didn't know about, he didn't apologise for and for which no amends have ever been made.

And yet, you KNOW it happened. At least an emotional affair.

There is no doubt about that - the interaction between them when he was away and after he came back (before you tipped them off) was clearly inappropriate, he was lying to you too, and she was telling him how much she missed him.

And it is related to how cruel he was when he came home. You say you are fine with his abusive attitude towards your illness, but how can that be when you haven't addressed the reason he was so uninterested in how you were feeling and impatient with you being in any way demanding of him?

Namely that his affections were elsewhere at that time.

No, not with accommodating, physically helping with my hobby but yes accommodating too I guess. I didn't offer to help with his hobby but we did talk about him joining before he went to the first meeting and at that time I was supportive of him joining. What neither of us realised to start with was just how much time they would expect people to give. I know the wife of another member who refuses to even have the organisation mentioned at home as it takes her husband away so much - he does way more than mine!

It's weird reading the replies to my OP, I can hardly recognise my husband in your descriptions. The mention of affair and infidelity makes me feel ill even though I have thought the same, seeing it written down and coming from someone else is hard to hear but I am listening.

"You say you are fine with his abusive attitude towards your illness, but how can that be when you haven't addressed the reason he was so uninterested in how you were feeling and impatient with you being in any way demanding of him?" This was very painful to read. But while I still feel the word 'abusive' as extreme I can't believe I hadn't thought of this myself :(. God this hurts.

Thank you both for helping me. I feel so stupid now :( I should have dealt with this long ago and I should have done it very differently. I really could cry :(

Join is right ThistleDown.

That nasty behaviour towards you when he came home after the residential was all about this other relationship.

I hope you haven't cried too much about this, although displaying those emotions can be cathartic too.

I do think there's this disonnance thing that goes on about how a cheater presents and that's probably why you can't match up your personal knowledge of your husband with the posts you're reading on this thread.

But IME, it really is the utterly normal guys and gals who love their families, work hard and are the pillars of the community who get themselves into these scrapes. The pantomime villain stereotype has got a lot to answer for, because it means women like you get blindsided and can't match up the suspected actions with the man who's upstairs bathing the baby.

I hope this is all helping

No, no, no, you are not stupid at all.

I'm sorry if I made you feel that way. I was actually at a training course yesterday and trying (and failing) to be helpful, but I was thinking last night that I had not really managed to express myself well.

"I should have dealt with this long ago and I should have done it very differently."

Well perhaps. But it happened when you were at your lowest and were not in any position to deal with it.

There is another person who should have dealt with this long ago and done it very differently, and that is the person who is responsible for this whole mess, i.e. your husband.

HE also knows what went on, he knows how much this woman bothers you, he knows that you have good reason for that, he knows he has lied to you, and he knows the rest of the story that you don't know.

This is my suggestion for how you approach this:

No supplication, no conciliatory approach, no "please help me out with the truth about this".

You say something along the lines of:

9 years ago you had an affair with X. We have never had an honest conversation about what happened at that time, and I need that conversation to happen now.

You know more about what happened at that time than I do, and I want you to fill me in on the bits that are missing. The future of our relationship depends on you being completely honest with me now.

I'm not making any promises about how I will react to what you tell me. But I can promise you that if you try to fob me off with the bullshit you gave me at the time, or to minimise what happened, my next move will be to visit a solicitor to draw up a separation agreement with a view to divorce.

+++++

The points is you KNOW that he had an affair with this woman.

You know that over a fortnight when you were at home being diagnosed with PND that he was seeking her out to sleep with at night.

You can presume that he was giving her loads about how needy and difficult you were (your PND didn't show up overnight, you must have been showing signs before he left, and even if you hadn't been he would have said those things).

That was what he needed "support" with from her after he came back - how difficult you were and how unhappy he was in his marriage.

These are all things that you KNOW. And even if there was never any sexual contact (and I personally think that is very unlikely given the high number of opportunities for overnight action they've had over the past decade) that was still a complete betrayal of you and your trust in him.

Just passing through just now, go

Argh! Stupid phone! Just going out with a RL friend for lunch but will be back later this afternoon.

You are helping, you have no idea how much.

:)

Enjoy your lunch.

I had a lovely lunch and got to talk to my friend about things. She agrees that I have to raise this with DH.

Our eldest is coming home for the weekend with his GF so the conversation will have to wait until Sunday but it will be had, no matter how hard it is for me.

Feeling very tearful today which isn't good. This is all so much harder as DH is being lovely and all I can think of is the coming weekend and the fact she will be there. He mentioned the coming weekend in passing and I just felt sick :(

Well yes of course he is 'being lovely'. He knows it's really inappropriate to keep meeting up with this woman and he knows your feelings about it, so that's guilt you're seeing at best or at worst, an attempt to normalise their association. This isn't at all meant to hurt you either sweetheart, but he's possibly in a very good mood because he's looking forward to going away.

It's really vital that you get this aired tomorrow. Have you blocked out enough time for this and made arrangements so that you won't be interrupted?

On a practical note, obviously he shouldn't go on this residential, so he will need a bit of time to give them notice of cancellation won't he?

I do hope you're not even considering going along with him attending, are you?

We will have the talk tomorrow night once the DSs are in bed, I'll tell DS2 (13) to stay upstairs as his Dad I need to talk about something important.

I think after we've had a talk he will volunteer to not go although I know it will cause huge issues if he doesn't as he's in charge of one of the activities. He will also have to be open from now on about when she will be there and if at all possible not attend on those occassions.

What is really hurting me is that we have mutual friends in the organisation now. What if they know and no one has said to me, how foolish do I look? What must they think of me?

I wish I could cry instead of always feeling tearful and stressed. Unfortunately my anger is hardwired to my tear ducts so can never argue in a dignified way. I'll send up a weeping, sloppy mess .