DH lying,yet again. Is it a mountain or a molehill? (Long.)

[leopardsandspots]

Hello. Long time lurker on relationships. Reading the threads and wisdom on here has taught me so very much, and helped me come through a bad time with DH. Or so I thought.....

The current issue is that DH has just lied about employing a guy he used to work with years ago. This guy caused trouble for DH previously, and is now very troubled. I think it's an error of judgment to give him a job now in a company that is struggling anyway. DH and his partner employed this guy over three weeks ago and DH deliberately omitted to tell me.

I know that doesn't seem a big deal, but it is, because of huge issues of trust in our history. Bear with me......

The whole story is very, very long but I'll try and summarise key points.DH and I are in our late 40's. We have been married for 7 years and are very lucky at our age, to have a lovely, five year old together. We also both have equally wonderful older children from our previous relationships. Everything would be perfect, were it not for DH's past and dishonesty haunting us.

To cut a long story short eighteen months before I met him, DH had left his first wife and three children. When I met him he was genuinely single. He was living in a man flat and seemed a bit of a lost soul. When we met, his divorce was well and truly over.

Initially he told me no one else had been involved in his first marriage breakdown (and naively I believed him). Then about a year into our relationship, when a bit drunk, he disclosed that, contrary to what he had told me initially, he had grown very close to a work contact before he left his first wife.

My analysis now- having learnt from MN is that he had a classic emotional affair towards the end of his first marriage. Instead of working at that marriage, he followed the script, distanced himself from his first wife by finding fault with her. He then invested all his emotional energy in the married work woman, as they both bemoaned their marriages over clandestine drinks etc . This is my take on what happened with marriage number one. DH denies this. He says his first marriage was just over, and the married woman was just some- one to confide in. As he has said in our counselling.... I can't really comment on his first marriage as I hadn't met DH then and couldn't know.In effect -what's it to do with me really?

So after he left his wife and children he then had an affair with the married woman which then petered out after 3 months. This woman clearly preferred her husband and accepted a job offer in Australia with her husband and children. All this business was therefore over long before I met DH and was concealed from me.

I still can't believe I got involved in this tbh.

Anyway, by the time I discovered his history we had been dating a year. He explained he hadn't told me at the outset because he felt ashamed, and knew I wouldn't approve of infidelity etc. He acknowledged what he'd done was wrong as the woman was married. He kept saying he had now told me now, and couldn't bear to lose me. I had massive doubts about his integrity but I forgave him as it was all before we met; and I believed his penitence. I loved him too. He begged me not to think less of him. I was in love, and accepted the fact he was now being honest, and it was all in the past. Perhaps part of a sad mid life crisis.

We got engaged, moved in together, married, had a baby.

He has always maintained he is no longer in touch with the married woman in Australia. I wouldn’t have minded him keeping occasionally in touch with her anyway. She is still with her H and happier. (Anyway, she lives on the other side of the world, and it was history for goodness sake.)

DH always maintains he'd lost touch with her, but he goes for regular business trips to Sydney. Last year he went twice shortly after my Mum had died as well. On both occasions I asked if he'd seen her. He looked me in the eye and said he didn't see this woman as he was too busy. Then in autumn 2012 I found an innocuous work email sent to her -showing they had been in contact. When challenged, he completely denied he had been in touch with her at all. So after a big row about the importance of honesty in marriage, and following standard MN relationships advice, I threw him out. This lasted for three months. At Christmas we reunited at his initiative and are still together, having weekly counselling, talking about rebuilding trust in some sessions.

So last night I realised he'd been deceitful about this guy he has employed. He has been working with him now, for over three weeks, day in day out in a small office of 5 people. DH has been coming home everyday without mentioning he had given him a job. On the one hand DH’s work decisions are his own. If he has made an error of judgment, that will be for him to deal with. However why lie to me when we have trust issues anyway? Am I making a mountain out of a molehill?

The problem with lies is that you wonder how many other times they will lie. He won't change. He doesn't share my views on trust and intimacy and openness in a marriage. So what do I do? Accept that I have a DH who will lie sometimes and doesn't respect me enough to be open? Accept he has many other qualities and just re prioritise the importance of honesty in a marriage? Stick with the bloody counselling for another year, in the hope he may change and stop lying? LTB now as it's only a matter of time before larger and worse untruths happen? Mountains, molehills, leopards, spots.... I don’t bloody know any more.

I slept for about three hours last night tossing and turning trying to figure out why he lies. Then I cried on the ‘phone to my friend today. I thought we were turning a corner until yesterday and now DH has lied again.

Thanks for reading and for any advice. I know there are far worse DH's described on here.

Sigh.

well, i would say molehill, work is work and nothing to do with your personal relationship, but it sounds like you have big trust issues going on here. are you still going for counselling and is that helping?

Lying is corrosive. Mistrust is what kills relationships and it's not a little thing, it's very serious. Like the 'Boy Who Cried Wolf', if he lies so casually and so easily about trivial matters and serious matters alike you can't believe a damn word he says. Also, if he doesn't have the integrity to own up to mistakes ("he felt ashamed, and knew I wouldn't approve") that's the sign of a weak character and it's not a very appealing trait. Why does he lie? Because it's his default setting.

He has no reason to change behaviour at the moment. The worse that happens is he gets yelled at or dragged along to counselling.... he's laughing at you.

Thank-you both so for your quick replies.I’m having trouble working as just keep thinking about it. I thought the counselling was helping, but it can’t be ca it as he just lied again? I agree that trust is corrosive. Speaking the truth is a caring, intimate thing to do in a marriage and the effect of lying is to sow seeds of doubt. He has looked me in the eye and lied several times now. I can't see how that is compatible with love. However you can’t end a marriage over lies about:
• Some sneaky emails and two lunches with a married woman on the other side of the world; and
• Omitting to tell me he employed some-one who has caused problems previously.

I agree lying is his default setting- but he clearly won’t or can’t change that setting. I just go round and round in circles. I suppose I just go on trying with him ,until there’s an infidelity or a bigger lie. I just wish more for my daughters if they ever marry, that’s for certain.

Sorry " Can't be can it..."

I disagree about needing a 'big lie' to end a marriage. You've already been told some pretty serious whoppers that others would find intolerable and, if you keep turning a blind eye and rationalising them away, there will never be a lie big enough to end it.

And what about the lies you don't know about yet? That's what keeps you awake at night I suspect. No amount of 'trying' on your part will ever make a dishonest person trustworthy.

I am sort of in a similar situation where my DH has had some kind of EA (or worse) with someone 2 yrs ago, changed his behaviour to a degree (less of a tosser) but never fully explained or apologised about the inappropriate texting, then has carried on with other intermittent lies and taking me for granted. I've had enough and he moved out. I'm still in the turmoil of that with 2 small DCs, but am fairly sure it's the right decision. Someone who lies all the time messes with your head - I guess it depends how much else you get out of the relationship. For me there wasn't much really when it came down to it.

I am sort of in a similar situation where my DH has had some kind of EA (or worse) with someone 2 yrs ago, changed his behaviour to a degree (less of a tosser) but never fully explained or apologised about the inappropriate texting, then has carried on with other intermittent lies and taking me for granted. I've had enough and he moved out. I'm still in the turmoil of that with 2 small DCs, but am fairly sure it's the right decision. Someone who lies all the time messes with your head - I guess it depends how much else you get out of the relationship. For me there wasn't much really when it came down to it.

An infidelity would be a big enough lie for me to end it.Definitely.It is like that is what I am almost waiting for...then the path is clear.

I don't turn a blind eye, but the process of counselling does lead to rationalising some stuff away.I get confused by that too.It is almost like the more understanding you have it makes you tolerate more.So you become weker by counselling not stronger?

So do I quit before it gets worse....but it may not get worse. It doesn't need to be said that the fallout for the children is so, so massive .

Sorry weaker not weker.I can spell- honestly.

Has he said why he lies? Is it because he thinks you would over react to the truth and he can't be arsed with it. Or does he lie because he knows he ha done wrong and daren't risk you leaving him? Or does he lie because he likes doing so and maybe wants to see how much he can trick you?

In itself, it's a bit of a molehill, but as part of the bigger picture of his automatic lying/ deceit, I think it's more like part of the mountain, tbh.

If lying is second nature to him then it's awfully hard to be able to trust him over anything; and since he's lied to you about seeing the ex-affair woman in Sydney, who knows what else he just randomly lies about because it's easier at the time?

I would be very unhappy about this, I have to say, but not on its own, just as part of the overall situation with mistrust.

"It is almost like the more understanding you have it makes you tolerate more."

But you say you don't understand it. I think the truth is that you are so averse to ending the marriage that you use the counselling sessions to allow yourself to be persuaded & reassured that it's 'no biggie'. When he says he'll do better in future, you believe it because you want to believe it. It's not a criticism exactly, it's human nature to take the easy path and build the case to support why the easy path is the right path. It's a lot more difficult to make a stand.

I think the trust thing goes both ways. He lies because he doesn't trust you not to overreact. In his mind, he wasn't doing anything wrong about the woman in Australia or the new employee - and you agree about that - but was afraid you'd kick off about it, so better to keep schtum. Perhaps his first wife was over-controlling? Or that's the way he was brought up.

He doesn't understand why the lying matters to you, because what he lied about wasn't bad in itself. This is very common. Doesn't necessarily mean he's a congenital liar or would lie over something important and not feel guilt.

As you say, the fall-out for the children would be massive. I'd carry on with the counselling. It's not a quick fix and it's only making you 'weaker' if what you want is to leave. The counsellor might be able to get through to him how lying to avoid hassle is a short-term benefit, long-term disaster.

Btw, what would you have said/done if he had told you about the employee?

This is all so very helpful.Thank-you.Better than months of counselling. I have children back from school now though so need to stop 'working' or not working at my desk.I will reply when I can.Thank-you.

"He lies because he doesn't trust you not to overreact"

That's the kind of cowardly logic you'd expect from a child, not a grown man.

Thank-you all for your replies. I am feeling much better today largely because of your input and some sleep. I actually got some work done today as well.

Cogito.You are brilliant. You are right.I am confused, but think I have more understanding of the dishonesties of the past. This makes me more tolerant of them, but I have less understanding of why he lied again this week when we have been through the effects of dishonesty again and again.

I am averse to ending the marriage. However I did make a strong stand and instantly throw him out for three months when he emailed this woman before and then denied it. Thanks to MN lurking I already had a printed copy of said emails in my back pocket and literally made him leave instantly at 10.30 pm at night.So I was strong then.I don’t really believe him when he says he'll do better in future. I’m kind of neutral. I don’t know that there will definitely be worse lies ahead-but there probably will be as he has made oblique references to how he doesn’t know what else he should have told me.

Thymeout-Good question! If he had told me about the employee I would have repeated I think it’s a massive error of judgment. I would have reminded him of the time that this guy tried to politically manoeuvre DH out of a job years ago. I would suggested at least interviewing some new candidates. Assuming he persisted I would have suggested a short probationary period, and clear terms in the contract that allowed for dismissal for incompetence at work, drunkenness at work etc.
I think he does think it’s better to keep schtum because he doesn’t like conflict,this is clearly because of his relationship with his Father. However we have endlessly discussed that I will be more upset over the lying, than the underlying issue.

Thumbwitch -Yes that’s it. It’s part of a mountain, or I suppose I am frightened it is part of a mountain that I can't see. I am very, very unhappy about it all. Life is busy and stressy enough balancing children and other caring responsibilities plus working.If as he says he loves me why can’t he just be open and honest?

MissStrawberry Your questions are very perceptive and interesting. He either says he doesn’t lie or he says it’s my fault because I will overreact to the truth and he wants a quiet life. I think he lied over the woman because he found the clandestine nature of it all exciting, as it must have been for him before. Sometimes I also do think he enjoys having tricked me which is very unpleasant, but he denies this. I guess lying can be for a mixture of reasons which I hadn’t really figured out before.

HMQueen-I am so sorry you have had something similar and glad you have had the strength to make the right decision. I think you are right that it depends on how much else you get out of the relationship, and for me it's a bit different because there are lots of good things too.

I think I'll just carry on with the counselling in the hope that it brings about a change in his behaviour, but it hasn’t yet, as evidenced by the dishonesties of this week. The counsellor is lovely and does help me, but makes no bloody impact on him. The issues is drumming in that lying to me to avoid short term possible hassle cultivates an even worse long-term disaster. I guess I just go on as we are, until something worse happens and then I know?

Thank-you again so much.You were so instantly perceptive.Ironic isn't it that MNetters who don't know me can be so perceptive, and a man who has been married to me for years just can't?

P.S. 'That's the kind of cowardly logic you'd expect from a child, not a grown man' is exactly what my best gay friend said when I discussed the lying with him the last time.

" lying to me to avoid short term possible hassle cultivates an even worse long-term disaster."

My DS (13yo) learned a tough lesson this week i.e. whilst the truth may get you in trouble, lying (or concealing the truth in this case) gets you in even bigger trouble. But he's 13yo and I'm damn scary :) If your DH has got to adulthood and is still lying rather than face the music, when he tells the counsellor he'll change, chances are it's just another lie to get him out of another hole.

An example of the stupid, unnecessary but ultimately symptomatic lies I discovered my (now) ex used to tell me - 'to protect you Wisey' 'because you'd overreact Wisey', 'because I didn't think it was a big deal Wisey' and so on ad infinitum:

"no I'm not smoking again"

"No I didn't stop off for a pint on the way home"

"I'm just on the way home now"

"I need to work this weekend because two of the (mature) students have had a falling out and I need to sort it"

"I'm at my DF's eating a big plate of Lincolnshire sausages"

And then-

"She's like a sister to me"

"I don't know who wrote you the anonymous letter"

"I will never lie to you again"

It must be really difficult for you OP. I don't envy you.

Thank you so much for posting Wisey. How are you? I feel like I know you as I remember when you and Saffysmum were originally posting about your twunts. That is when I started looking at MN initially.You were such a wonderful inspirational role model for us all, and so did not deserve to be treated as you were.However the way you triumphed is amazing.

I guess I was so drawn to your and other threads because it was (and is) like looking into a crystal ball for me.That is the path I think I am on too. Your quotes of lies strike a cord with me. He has gone through periods of coming home later than usual in the evening with alcohol on his breath :
“Oh yes, actually I did just have one glass at lunchtime”. hmm one glas still on the breath 10 hours later.Right.

It hasn’t happened often, and it was just drinks with mates (I think) which I wouldn’t mind about anyway. So the lying appears to be a pattern,and perhaps because he wrongly thinks I’d give him grief when I wouldn’t if he communicated openly about it.However as Wisey says the lies are stupid,unecessary and I suspect ultimately symptomatic.

It’s like I feel I know what will happen, but I don’t think it has happened yet.The only hope is if therapy can divert that path.I think that's why I was so upset this week as the lie about the bloke at work showed that any changes in his pattern of behaviour seemed untenable.

On a separate note I'd love to know what Cogito's son concealed the truth about.Surely that can be completely erased from one man's deafult setting now? Please tell me that 20 years from now some poor woman will not be posting on here about him?!

Sorry glass not glas.I am turning into a typo Queen.

You're very welcome and I'm glad you were able to take something helpful from it.

Life is good. We all moved on and I'm happy to say that ex h has finally accepted that I don't want him in my life at all, not even to be on nodding terms if we pass in the street. I think he's a sadder man for all his grandiosity.

That's why I had to respond to your thread. I've lived it and I know what it's like, it's so ridiculous and maddening and disrespectful. You're H is skating on thin ice. That's for sure.

I just thought I'd do an update (years down the road) following all the help I had on here. I always like to know what happened.

In summary we are divorcing. Ta dah! Due in part to doing a house up, we ended up spending a lot of time apart. During this time, the lying carried on with DH trying to conceal a few evenings and nights out. I think he was drinking with colleagues, but who knows. As always, why lie?

Eventually in the pandemic we had a row, about me not hoovering enough and other domestic failings, and he left never to return..

Within 10 weeks to my surprise I met someone else. He's open, kind and funny! He chattily tells me where he's going and chats about who he meets. It was a bit soon to find someone but astonishingly different after all those years of secretiveness, counselling and anguish.

So I guess my message is that if you are in a relationship with layers of deceit, that make you doubt your sense of reality, there are alternatives. Counselling didn't work for us -DH continued to lie. Ultimately I think that misogyny played a part as where he went and what he did wasn't women's business. But not all men are like that!

I'm happier, calmer, and don't have a domestic life on balancing on egg shells. There's also a chance I'll be better off when the divorce is over. Guess what DH is lying in the divorce proceedings!

Great update! xx

But eight years later! Do you regret staying so long, OP? Or do you think it really needed to play out until the end? I hope you and your DD are doing OK.

Your observation about misogyny is interesting. It's what I was thinking as I read through the section about hiding that he'd employed the trouble-maker. Hopefully ending it now is a crucial lesson for your DD at a formative moment.