if my dh cannot even be civil to my dm i don't think i can move forward

[Fairylea]

There is so much backstory to this but essentially my mother is a functional alcoholic. She is not elderly, she is young 60s and works part time. We do not allow her to look after the dc on her own at all, although she is welcome to visit. We do not visit at hers because she has dangerous dogs.

My dm lived with me (I owned the house and paid bills) until 4 years ago (we had separate areas in the house) when I met dh and she basically went off the wall for a number of reasons... she disliked dh with a passion and didn't want him to move in, even though it was my house. So after a lot of painful arguments dh and I remortgaged my house (it had no mortgage) and we paid my mum off to move to another house 10 mins away.

So that is a short version of the history.

Because of things that have happened between usall my dh hates my dm with a passion and cannot understand why I don't just cut her out. I do understand why he is angry and yes I don't deny she was awful to him. However, a lot of what she said was in anger and fear at the time (fear of her living alone, she is divorced). She has since tried to make amends.

One of the reasons I cannot simply cut her out is because my eldest child is from a previous relationship and the grandparents are still reasonably close friends with my mum. So if I did stop contact then mum would just go through them and I'd be the evil one to everyone Iincluding my dd. Everyone thinks the sun shines out of my mums backside, no one has any idea whatsoever what she is like when she is drunk, not even dd as mum always drinks alone and in the evening.

Anyway. I try to keep contact short and away from dh, usually timing it when he is at work. We had a situation this week when he happened to come home earlier than planned and she was here. He literally went straight upstairs and hid the whole time. I was furious. My mum asked what was wrong and I made up some bullshit about him having to prepare for a meeting.

I'm not expecting him to gush over her but just being civil is not too much to ask, mainly so I don't look like I am married to a complete arsehole and so the dc do not have to suffer a bad atmosphere.

Neither of us are talking to each other now really as I am so angry with him. We have a discussion and he agrees we can't cut contact and then it goes round in circles when he does happen to see her and we argue about it all over again. I'm sick of it.

It's also awkward with things like Christmas because obviously mum wants to bring the dc stuff on Christmas day and see them open presents and dh will sit there with a face like thunder the whole time rather than just getting on with it. I am an only child and mum does not have a partner so if I do not invite her she will be home alone. She will only stay a max of an hour or so because of her dogs anyway.

I'm not expectinghim to put up with lots of contact either.. she never rings, only emails, comes round maybe once a week, usually when he's at work and for Christmas. That's it!

I really don't see how we can go forward.

We're just constantly arguing about this. Going round in circles.

I know some will say I should side with dh but I've known my mum inside out all my life and I understand why she does the things she does. We have always been there for each other. I've only been with dh 4 years. I can't just cut my mum out, I don't want to.

Please be kind. I'm very upset and know I'm perhaps wrong. I'm frustrated.

I don't know, Molly. Good question.

Maybe it's just that I accept my mum is older and isn't going to change, and I accept that her life has been a really hard one and drinking is her way of coping... I don't think it's the right way of coping but it's the only way she knows how to.

I'm not expecting dh to change his view of my mum. He can hate her as much as he likes. I just want him to be civil. Like I'd be civil to David Cameron for example even though I think he's an utter cunt.

Dh won't allow the dc at her house at all as he doesn't trust her to lock the dogs up securely so going there is a no go.

I am so worn out with it all, I know dh is very angry with me and hurt. I know he is upset he feels I'm not supporting him.

A part of me feels like I don't know why I should have to cut contact with the only family I have for someone who might walk out on me one day, which is what my ex dh did to me, upped and left in two weeks, no contact after that went back to an ex before me. I know that's not fair to dh to think like that. He's a lovely dad, we hardly ever argue apart from stuff about mum. Sometimes I feel like I'm permanently holding back.

I've looked up al anon groups and there is one in my village! So I'm going to go. Thank you.

She trained you to put her before anyone else including your own self and family unit now. She is damaging to your family.

She was a toxic parent to you and now she is a toxic grandparent to your children, it was never going to be any different with her. In her case the toxic rot started in her own dysfunctional childhood.

She is toxic and you need to let go of her because all she is doing is dragging you down with her.

I am not at all surprised to read also that her own childhood featured abuse within it.

No-one forced her to drink, she made a conscious choice to do so.

Her poorly made choices throughout her life still impact on you and your family now to its overall detriment.

FOG - fear, obligation and guilt are three damaging legacies of toxic parents and you Fairylea have FOG in spades.

"A part of me feels like I don't know why I should have to cut contact with the only family I have for someone who might walk out on me one day, which is what my ex dh did to me, upped and left in two weeks, no contact after that went back to an ex before me. I know that's not fair to dh to think like that".

No it is not fair to think like that at all.

Your H is not your ex H is he?. They are two completely different men. Your H seems like a good man who has reached the end of his tether with regards to your mother.

There's a bit of a difference between courtesy to someone who is not emotionally connected to you, and having to endure the presence of someone toxic who expects you to just put up with it because they're family.

Your DH is not asking you to go no contact. However he is expecting you to accept that he wants to go no contact. I think he's right - you are failing to support him in that decision. And it's a reasonable one for him to make, really.

I so agree with AttilaTheMeerkat. As someone who suffered with toxic parents, especially toxic mother, I can say, from my own experience, I had to put my kids, husband first, even though it resulted in me breaking off all contact with my mother for a long time. I just couldn't let her malign influence affect my dear ones. She was well looked after, in an extremely good nursing home, with staff who were positively sainted, but she still tried to cause trouble there, get people sacked and was generally obnoxious. So I'd had enough, though I still made her a generous allowance, bought her anything she needed. (I did start contact about eighteen months before her death. )

She'd been totally awful to my kids, especially my daughter, saying and doing the most horrible things. I wasn't going to put up with that. As for my father, who became alcoholic, I had no contact for over ten years, then met him briefly six days after my beloved husband suddenly died, at which father's first words were: 'How much has he left you?' and 'I expect you'll want to get married again'.

Sorry - didn't mean this post to be all about me. I sympathise with your husband. Apart from the awful behaviour of your mother towards you, him and her family, I'd be worried to death about allowing a child anywhere near her and those dogs.

Thank you for the replies.

So it seems like the majority view (and I am prepared to accept it) is that I am being unreasonable, and dh should be able to behave like this or effectively ignore my dm. Hmm. That's very difficult, I think that creates an awful atmosphere for the dc, and for all of us really.

I do see that she is toxic in many regards. The one thing she is always consistent in however is her love for the dc. She loves them to pieces. And she has always been affectionate towards me, as a child despite her being desperately ill I remember her playing imaginary games... always had time for a cuddle with me on the sofa and always told me she loved me and was proud of me. She told me I was her world and I always felt deeply protective of her. I suppose that has carried on till now.

I do have awful memories too... mainly from times she was psychotic like trying to stab my dad with a fork because he wouldn't let her leave the house in her dressing gown to go for a walk at 3am. I was 4.

I really don't know what to think or do anymore. My head is reeling. Even though I now accept dh is right I still feel really angry towards him. Part of me feels really angry that he is effectively forcing me to distance myself from my mum when to my mind I've already done so much - this is the first time mum and I haven't lived together.. and I did that mainly for him. Although I have to say I enjoy not living with her now and wouldn't want her back..

Sometimes I just don't think he appreciates how difficult the whole situation is for me. He is one of 4 children so even though he does not have contact with him family (long story) if he did and his parents ever became ill there are four of them to sort things out. With my mum there is only me. I don't have contact with my dad, there is no one else. No siblings.

I just want to be free to make my own choices about how I deal with my mum without dh having an opinion on it all. It is hard enough as it is. I want to have a quiet life and dh seems to want me to confront everything all the time. He is quite fiery and I am not.

Dh has a day off tomorrow so I guess we will discuss it all then. I just know the same thing will happen again and again. I actually found myself googling places to rent at the other end of the country today just to get away from it all. The only time I feel at peace is when it's just me and the dc.

There is no point - for either of you - in having the same discussion again. I get the impression you are not really hearing each other.

How is DH creating an atmosphere but making himself scarce when she comes round? You've mentioned a face like thunder if she comes on Christmas Day but nothing to say that has happened in the past. I get the impression this stress is more created by your unwillingness to tell her why he continues to avoid her. And is more to do with the stress of having to break silence instead of always pacifying.

I don't think he is exactly forcing you to distance yourself from your mum, although he is not doing a very good job of backing out. This is perhaps difficult for him given he does not regard alcohol as an excuse for bad behaviour (which it isn't) and he does not seem to be the type to let things go.

You say she loves her grandchildren, which I'm sure is true, but it's all on her terms. Everything is on her terms. You had to remortgage to buy her a house to live in, because she refused to accept your decision to marry.

At heart, though, your marriage does not seem very strong. That is sad when you have only been married for a short time and you have young children. What attracted you to your DH in the first place?

You seem caught between two much more forceful personalities and you can't please them both. Well guess what, it's not actually your job to please either of them. You need to put some time into building your own confidence and I'm afraid learning to detach emotionally from your mum's problems as they are only going to get worse. It just isn't good enough to say 'she's never going to change so why don't we all just accept it?'. You can change. You have the right to a relationship with your parent in which you aren't the parent.

Sweeping everything under the carpet doesn't make the stress go away, although I appreciate you need some respite from it in order to regroup. You and your DH need to work together, to support each other - and it is reasonable for you to ask for his help in managing your stress, rather than 'just' having the hump about her past behaviour. But you need to acknowledge the validity of his feelings too.

OP, as gently as possible - you say: dh should be able to behave like this or effectively ignore my dm. Hmm. That's very difficult, I think that creates an awful atmosphere for the dc, and for all of us really.

But your DH isn't doing anything. He just doesn't want a deeply toxic person in his life, so he removes himself from her presence. You want him to fake happy families so you can pretend the situation is not what it is. That isn't fair on him - normal, absolutely, but not fair. You're saying he should join you in allowing your mother to be the unexploded bomb in the family she so plainly seems to have been your whole life. He's not being nasty. He's not banning her from your life, or even his children's lives. He's just saying he won't pretend her abuse towards him never occurred - to live a lie, essentially. And you resent him for that.

One of the awful things about abusive family dynamics is the person who says "stop. Enough" is viewed as the person creating the problem. Not the abuser. And I'm sorry, but the abuser who set this situation up is not your DH.

I agree with tribot that you and your DH don't seem to be hearing each other on the subject of your mum. I think it's perfectly understandable that you aren't, when there is so much history and it is all so emotional.

If in your DH's opinion your DM is toxic, then it's not a case of being able to 'get over it', it would be incredibly difficult for him to pretend otherwise even for a minute so him removing himself from her presence is a proactive way to deal with it. On the other hand if she is your only blood family, the emotional ramifications of that are enormous and it sounds like you are only at the beginning of your journey. Your DH probably doesn't appreciate how difficult it is for you because how could he?. He has not suffered the abuse you have and cannot imagine how it has affected you. What he probably sees is that you have been abused and yet are letting your abuser continue to rule over you (even if it doesn't look like abuse to you). The prospect of dealing with this probably means for you that you might 'lose your parent' and the grief of this is shattering, it's no wonder you're reluctant. But your priority really ought to be your new family unit i.e. yourself, your DH and your children.

One way forward imo would be for you and your H to maybe go to Relate together? I think just being able to have this discussion about your mum with a third party who doesn't have an emotional involvement would help to untangle things for both of you and act as a sounding board to separate emotions from facts and for both of you to find a way forward together where you accept it's going to take time and cut each other some slack.

Just something about the financial side, perfectstorm. You say that her DH is annoyed because her mother is costing them money - he moved into a mortgage free house 4 years ago - that's a very unusual situation and not something he had a right to. The OP shared that house with her mum and so yes, when her mum moved out the OP paid for that move out of the re-mortgage.

I don't think the OP's husband has a right to complain that he is having to pay towards his own living expenses.

I don't think her husband has any right to complain to the OP, no. He's in an extremely fortunate position. But in his shoes I would want that money to go to the spouse and then children - not the emotionally blackmailing, toxic mother. They were under no obligation, if she'd been housed for free at her daughter's expense for years already, to then fund her in perpetuity as has happened.

The two issues are IMO separate.

OP, I hope there's an arrangement that the money from your mum's house comes back to you and your family when she dies.

^Part of me feels really angry that he is effectively forcing me to distance myself from my mum when to my mind I've already done so much - this is the first time mum and I haven't lived together.. and I did that mainly for him. Although I have to say I enjoy not living with her now and wouldn't want her back..

I just want to be free to make my own choices about how I deal with my mum without dh having an opinion on it all. It is hard enough as it is. I want to have a quiet life and dh seems to want me to confront everything all the time. He is quite fiery and I am not.^

Are you listening to yourself? You are angry with your husband because he "forced" you not to live with your mother? You want to be free to "make your own choices" - i.e. pander to your mother and have "a quiet life"?

Your husband isn't forcing you to do anything. He just doesn't want to be near your mother, and he doesn't want his children exposed to her. And I must say, I entirely agree with him.

I am sorry, but you seem to believe that you have a loving mother who cares for you. Which is not the case. I understand that you prefer not to cut her off, and that this is a very painful situation for you. But I entirely agree with your husband's view. What you do is up to you. But you can't expect him not to be frustrated and angry with what this situation is doing to his loved ones (i.e. you and his children).

I think some counselling for both of you would be a good option, so that you could discuss these issues in front of a third party who is not involved. And I agree that Al-Anon is also a good idea.

Thank you for the comments.

I guess I am just going to have to accept dh and his behaviour towards my mum, I do understand what you're saying. The problem is if he confronted her and said he was upset by what she has done before basically we would all end up arguing again, and the last time we properly rowed with her was about two years ago (the night she went out drunk at 3am).

Since then we've carried on with this weird status quo of me trying to get on with her, her coming round to see the dc and dh avoiding her, however when he does happen to see her it is obvious he is being rude. My mum thinks everything is water under the bridge now so to bring it all up again would create endless stress and difficulty.

I do feel quite alone in dealing with everything with my mum..she has one close friend from work and that's it. She has tried dating but ends up disliking everyone by the third or so date (she loves herself quite a bit and thinks everyone else is fat / old / ugly / after her for sex etc). I'd love her to meet someone so it wasn't all on me.

The financial situation is such that dh is effectively paying for his share of my house by the remortgage we got out, of which we paid mum who then used it to buy her house. So her house is in her name. It is the only way she would agree to move out without causing a fuss. Dh hasn't done badly, if you think about it, aged 26 he is now on the title deeds to a high ish value property for which he has not had to provide any deposit and will be entitled to half in years to come. Mum hasn't done him out of money. Me maybe and I may be financially naive with regards to dh and mum but I just wanted to make everyone happy including me and go forward.

For background I used to have a very high earning job in London, mum and I always lived together, dad left me some money, when gran died (who looked after me a lot when mum was ill) she left me her house and some money and I consolidated it all into a country house and mum lived with me. So mum could argue she was entitled to some of that money as some came from her, our, original family home. However, she had not had to pay bills as gran had always paid for them (!!) And then I landed a good job and then I paid while mum became a sort of sahm but dd was in nursery so no childcare element, at the time I was married to my first dh who worked shifts and was always around to do school and nursery pick up etc.

So that is the complicated background.

Mum has a will I helped her write with a solicitor whereby when she dies (morbid) her property will pass to me so my investment is returned. One of the reasons I cynically don't want to fall out with her is that I don't want her to rewrite this, although cynically I guess she might do that anyway.

Dh and I were attracted to each other because we both wanted the same things, a strong family, a close family with us being good parents etc. We'd both been hurt before and wanted to make a good marriage. We had fun like all couples do in the lusty first stages. Somewhere it's all gone a bit wrong.

I just wanted to make everyone happy

Which is the problem.

Bizarrely you seem to be reading whatever we post as 'suck it up, now you have another [relatively] difficult person to try and please', which is not what anyone is trying to say.

Your mum seems basically to have lived off you, with you and through you your whole life. That must be suffocating.

It sounds like your DH and you have similar values. Did you ever wonder how strong families were made? Let's be honest, you don't come from one (and neither does he given he doesn't speak to any of his relatives). It's hard work and it means falling out and trying to reach agreement, not silence. I think the idea of Relate, to allow you to air these problems in a supportive setting, is a very good one.

Your mum thinks everything is water under the bridge because you've enabled her to think so. You're so used to covering up and making excuses and accepting that this has just been another thing to brush under the carpet. Not telling her why he's angry with her isn't reducing the number of rows, it's just deflecting them from her to him.

I think your mother played a huge part in what went wrong. I am not sure if you are seeing it or just minimising her part. Or you are willing to blame your husband a bit more than your mother because he can leave you at anytime while your mother will be there for the long haul.

But the thing is tribpot that I do feel that way, not because of what everyone is saying here, but because instead of being allowed to carry on in the way I have been for the last 30 odd years coping with my mother my dh is quite frankly really really irritating me by being so angry with my mother and not doing things my way, ie yes being a bit of a mug but anything for a quiet life. So now I do feel like I have another difficult person to deal with and I need to suck it up.

I'm sorry if it's come across like I'm not understanding people's posts, I really am. I'm taking it all in and frequently re reading.

Relate is a very good idea. I don't know if dh would go but it might be a start.

We do argue a lot, mainly about Mum and that means we haven't been communicating well. I admit I have also been avoiding him because I am fed up of going round in circles and so I make sure I am in bed by the time he comes in from work. Not helpful I know. I am just so exhausted by it all. I am constantly stressed.

Did he find it relatively easy to cut off his own family? He is young at 26 to do that.

But your way isn't coping, it's enabling. One of the ways you can tell it's not healthy is the impact it's now having on your marriage - and perhaps on why you no longer have contact with your dad?

You made a seismic, positive change in your life when you got married. But it was frankly unrealistic (never mind unreasonable) to imagine that he'd somehow slot into your existing family dynamic without a murmur.

Do think about Al Anon as well - your life is blighted and overshadowed by the addiction, as hers is. It is sadly very common.

"Anything for a quiet life".

That will destroy you. And your marriage. And possibly harm your children too.

I'm the child of an alcoholic op and your posts break my heart. The issue doesn't lie with your dh, he is simply challenging and questioning your 'norm'

For what it's worth, my dh hates my dad- because he see what it does to me. He's angry with him, because he loves and cares for me. Try and see what your dh is doing is because he cares about you and your dc.

I think you are angry, but are directing this at the wrong person, because it's easier for you to do that. The anger you are feeling is because of your mum, not your dh.

It's a ridiculously sad situation isn't it. And I am angry with my mum, really, really angry for everything. For the fact I never really had a mum at all. Let alone a proper childhood. I have been through counselling about it all when I was younger and done a lot of grieving on behalf of the little girl who was never allowed to be anything other than a shoulder to lean on. I am very angry.

But I suppose in trying to live my life as easily as I can I've just suppressed a lot of my anger. I don't have the energy to be constantly arguing with mum all the time, she'd be literally on the doorstep banging and shouting and sobbing down the phone asking why I don't love her anymore etc etc (been there done that) and then nothing changes, mainly because of dd having contact and through her dad and grandparents it all goes back round again. So what is the point in rocking an already sinking boat? I know the boat will sink one day, I don't need to sail it through a tsunami to sink it faster, calm seas are nicer to look at for everyone. I'm waffling. I know.

My dad's lack of contact is nothing to do with my relationship with my mum. He is generally a shit parent. Typical old style chief executive business man who never wanted children, had me and couldn't be bothered. He will telephone maybe once every year... never met either of my dc or attended my wedding(s). Mum and dad divorced when I was 12. He will send an occasional cheque for Christmas with a card but no emotional involvement at all.

Dhs family thing is really complicated. Essentially he was the last and unwanted child and whereas his parents will move heaven and earth for the other 3 (and I have seen this) dh is left to the skip basically. He had contact with them until about a year ago and then due to an argument about all this he hasn't contacted them (he'd normally be the one initiating contact all the time, another gripe) and they have not made any contact with him, none whatsoever.

What a dysfunctional lot. No wonder our own relationship is so ridiculous.

Your post suggests to be that your mum IS toxic. You say 'if I did stop contact then mum would just go through them and I'd be the evil one to everyone including my dd.' If your mother wasn't toxic, I don't think that you would assume that she would infer to anybody else that you were a bad person and cause people to think your were evil, ESPECIALLY your own child. You also lied to her when she asked you why he went upstairs. Why not tell her 'He's avoiding you because you verbally abused him and he doesn't want to be around you'. This would have been honest, reasonable, and fair to your dh. If she is so entitled (and which alchoholic isn't?) that she thinks she can treat him anyway she likes and deserves to have it ignored because she 'can't remember' and she's your mum - more evidence that she is toxic. Please don't get the faulty idea that she is justified in thinking that. She isn't.

Your DH is within his rights to avoid your mother if he wants - she was verbally abusive to both of you and he seems to genuinely feel that she is toxic. You don't suggest that he is behaving in an abusive way, trying to manipulate you. It's the other way around if anything. Everybody has the right to choose not to be around toxic people. I understand you are upset, but I think it is very disrespectful to your dh not give him this choice. He's given it to you - he isn't stopping you from seeing her. Imagine how hopeless your dh must feel at the unavoidable prospect of either feeling terrible spending time around your dm or feeling terrible spending time around you while you freeze him out and treat him badly for not spending time with her?

I've cut my mum off now (she's been an alcoholic since before I was born), and I felt grateful at the time that dh bit his lip and was civil (even after being accused of molesting our dc's!). But he only did this - and I only let him - because her behavior never seemed to press any of his buttons. I think this was because she was very pathetic and he felt sorry for her. In retrospect though, it didn't do me any favors, it just enabled me to stay in an abusive relationship for longer.

cross posts fairy - I wrote half of that last night before I was forced in to bed by fussy dc's .