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Original poster

Opinions wanted (prenuptial agreement)

184 replies

Yougotbale · 18/09/2013 16:51

Hi, I'm a lurker but wanted to get some views and advise on my situation.
I am 34 and have been fortunate enough to have been financially successful. I am currently retired but may get involved in businesses in the future.
I have been in a relationship with my DP for 4 years. We have lived together for 3 years. She really values marriage and I would be happy to fulfill her dream by asking her to marry. However, I have mentioned that I would like a prenuptial agreement to safeguard my previous earnings and assets. (I've not turned to legal advise so might be overreacting about what is at risk, any info would be good).
At the moment my DP lives in my house. I pay all bills including car, mobile, food and holidays. She still works full time and spends her money on herself (which I like). with little expenditure, she approx saves £15-20k per year. (This is put in cold terms. I see the house as our home. Her car. We are a team).
We don't have children, and both don't want children. I got a vasectomy to take control of contraception. With this in mind, she will save a small fortune of her own.

Anyway, when I mentioned the 'prenuptial' she was very upset and offended. I can see this but think I'm not being unreasonable.
I guess, I wanted see what other people thought of prenups and of my situation?

OP posts:
Isetan · 19/09/2013 14:49

Don't get married, you're not on the same page.

Have you really talked about money? The snippets of info you've provided suggest that your current set-up provides your DP with a lot of financial freedom/ privileges. Her 'unromantic' comment is a pretty good way of shutting down discussion on this topic.

Marriage is still very much a financial commitment and if you two are not on the same page and do not have compatible opinions regarding its accumulation and spending then marriage would be an expensive undertaking.

EldritchCleavage · 19/09/2013 14:56

You might want to consider an old-fashioned idea that is less...grudging than a prenup: a marriage settlement or a modern variation on it.

You both put assets into the marriage, effectively declaring what are joint assets, even if you divorced 6 months later, and what remain assets of the individual spouse even after divorce. So your partner might make a proportion of her savings, and any investment income from them, common assets and keep a proportion back. You do the same with your assets, so e.g. house is in the common pot, other assets are not. The key would be, you are both generous about what are common assets.

I am no expert, so I don't know if this is even feasible, but wouldn't be better to have something that is an exercise in generosity not parsimony?

Twooter · 19/09/2013 15:16

I couldn't marry you under these circumstances. For a start, you have all the power in the relationship. You don't want kids - you have a vasectomy. You want to split - she has to leave the house. She's working - you're off holidaying. Really, I don't think she has such a great deal. Her whole life will depend on what you want rather than what she does.

Original poster
Yougotbale · 19/09/2013 15:42

Twooter - that's not true. My DP works because she wants to. She has her own working life, her own money, her own circles to move in. This gives her a lot of power for herself and for her with in the relationship. I'm thinking about making her joint owner of the home if we marry. We would both probably lose the house if we split. Unless one of us buys the other out.
Getting a vasectomy is not an easy decision to make. We both decided not to have children. If she want children I wouldn't have had the procedure done (that wouldn't mean I'd rush in to children either). I'm not one of these people that instantly puts the burden of contraception on the woman.
Like other relationships, it's very much a democracy.

OP posts:
lemonstartree · 19/09/2013 16:01

I think a prenup is extremely sensible. lets assume OP is worth £5 million at the start. His DP is worth say £100.000. he and his DP get married and sadly later part. At the end of the marriage the OP is now worth £7.5 mill and his wife £500.000. the difference between the two, £ 2.5 mill on his part; £400K on hers, goes into one pot and is divided 50:50. She keeps the £100K she started with and he keeps the £5 mill.

My house is worth a lot more than DP's. It is for my children when I die. with a life interest for DP. I do not want it left to his children should I die before him. I had it when we met. Its for my kids. Similarly my children should not expect a payout form his place should he die first...
I would not get married again without a prenup. I wish I had had one first time around !

Apocalypto · 20/09/2013 14:56

No, no, no. Prenups are no good because they are not enough.

1/ they are perishable. A pre-nup can become obsolete over time. One signe din 2013 will be largely ignored in a divorce in 2023.
2/ the burden of proving your wife was properly advised is on you, not her. she will be advised to say she wasn't and you'll have to prove she was.

3/ prenups are highly likely to be set aside if they leave your ex wife with appreciably less than a divorce court would have given her. they work not at reducing your exposure but at specifying it: eg "we've got four houses and if we divorce I get to keep those two". they don't work if what you're after is "I brought four houses to the marriage and I'll take them away".
4/ you can't have kids now but this is the area where IM(admittedly limited)E people are most likely to change their minds later. adoptive children = all the hassle you think you're forestalling
5/ and this is the kicker - how do you know pre nups won't be banned?

IANAL but marriage is unlike any other contract in two ways.

one, the terms of your marriage can be altered by third parties at any time without your consent. this could include prenups in the same way it has previously altered around things like pensions pots.

two, lies told to induce or maintain the contract don't invalidate it. if a fridge salesman gets you to buy his fridge by telling you it can wash the kitchen floor, that lie induced the contract and voids it, so you're entitled to be put back at his cost into the position you were in before you bought the fridge. but if you marry a paedophile, criminal, drug abuser, KKK member or satanist, and they concealed it from you, you're still married to them.

three, redress in such cases ignores the lies. if your spouse lied to you, all you can do is divorce him / her in the usual way; and the lying is of nil account in deciding what she gets.

the risks to you may or not be large but they are not addressed by a PN now, never mind what happens to those in the future. your safest course is not to marry her but to cohabit.

Apocalypto · 20/09/2013 14:57

er, so that's three ways...ahem.

waltzingparrot · 20/09/2013 15:15

Maybe she's worried that you won't really mean your wedding vows..... With this ring I thee wed, with my body I thee worship, and with all my worldly goods I thee endow.

Original poster
Yougotbale · 20/09/2013 15:26

I don't think we would go for these vows. Maybe update them. I would want her to worship me

OP posts:
Original poster
Yougotbale · 20/09/2013 15:27

Wouldn't

OP posts:
Bogeyface · 20/09/2013 15:48

I wouldnt worry mate, I dont think she will.

Offred · 20/09/2013 15:59

Oh dear you are getting a hard time!

Hate all this stuff about vows. Actually don't know a single person who made those very traditional vows so weird to hold every married person to them IMHO!

whiteandyellowiris · 20/09/2013 16:00

sounds like you don't want to be married to her really
marriage is after all a commitment to spend the rest of your life together, for richer for poorer
in it together as equals

and you dont want to offer that full commiitment
so let her go and find someone else to be happy with

Original poster
Yougotbale · 20/09/2013 16:08

white the commitment is the same. Whilst together everything is equal. The vows you talk about, 'for richer for poorer', refer to whilst being together. There are no vows describing what should happen if the marriage breaks down. This is more a contractual thing. The ceremony and meaning would be exactly the same.

OP posts:
DontmindifIdo · 20/09/2013 16:09

Oh now, sod the pre-nup, wanting to write your own vows might be a deal breaker for me (possibly because DH suggested "you are the cannon to my ball" before I put my foot down and said we were having the traditional ones)

whiteandyellowiris · 20/09/2013 16:10

what a shit way to live imo, with one foot out the door

your either in it [life] together or your not imo

don't get married op
you dont want that total commitment so simply do not get married

Original poster
Yougotbale · 20/09/2013 16:13

dont we would write them together. You do realise they don't have to be ridiculous, like you describe, or traditional. They can be something inbetween. Maybe more personalised rather than mass produced

OP posts:
HorryIsUpduffed · 20/09/2013 16:17

"... until death us do part ..." ?

Original poster
Yougotbale · 20/09/2013 16:18

white lol. It is totally committed. I think break ups are more circumstantial.

OP posts:
Original poster
Yougotbale · 20/09/2013 16:19

horry what?

OP posts:
Preciousbane · 20/09/2013 16:19

This reply has been deleted

Message withdrawn at poster's request.

TalkativeJim · 20/09/2013 16:19

I'm thinking about making her joint owner of the home if we marry.

Grin I think that will happen if you marry whether you like it or not!

Original poster
Yougotbale · 20/09/2013 16:22

talkative actually changing the deeds

OP posts:
HorryIsUpduffed · 20/09/2013 16:30

You were talking about the content of vows and how "for richer for poorer" doesn't take into account that a marriage might end; so I pointed out that about thirty seconds later it says "until death us do part" which kinda sorta assumes no divorce Grin

TalkativeJim · 20/09/2013 16:31

It wouldn't make any difference OP, once you marry, if you split the house would be an asset of the marriage and it wouldn't make any difference whether her name was on the deeds or not. Hence - your idea of a prenup, I suppose!

I think the only exception would be an exceptionally short marriage and no children. However, if you've already been living together for some time that might not apply.