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Original poster

Opinions wanted (prenuptial agreement)

184 replies

Yougotbale · 18/09/2013 16:51

Hi, I'm a lurker but wanted to get some views and advise on my situation.
I am 34 and have been fortunate enough to have been financially successful. I am currently retired but may get involved in businesses in the future.
I have been in a relationship with my DP for 4 years. We have lived together for 3 years. She really values marriage and I would be happy to fulfill her dream by asking her to marry. However, I have mentioned that I would like a prenuptial agreement to safeguard my previous earnings and assets. (I've not turned to legal advise so might be overreacting about what is at risk, any info would be good).
At the moment my DP lives in my house. I pay all bills including car, mobile, food and holidays. She still works full time and spends her money on herself (which I like). with little expenditure, she approx saves £15-20k per year. (This is put in cold terms. I see the house as our home. Her car. We are a team).
We don't have children, and both don't want children. I got a vasectomy to take control of contraception. With this in mind, she will save a small fortune of her own.

Anyway, when I mentioned the 'prenuptial' she was very upset and offended. I can see this but think I'm not being unreasonable.
I guess, I wanted see what other people thought of prenups and of my situation?

OP posts:
Original poster
Yougotbale · 18/09/2013 21:06

imperial she doesn't come on this site. But I may show her the thread. To stimulate discussion

OP posts:
ImperialBlether · 18/09/2013 21:08

In your position I wouldn't marry her. I really wouldn't. If she can't understand that so many marriages end up in trouble then she's a bit daft to be honest! Of course you need a conversation about if you were to divorce presumably she wouldn't be left with absolute nothing would she? She would have the money that she has saved up but surely you would make sure she had somewhere to live etc if it was your idea that you'd split up?

Just a thought though. Is it good for you not working? Can you get bored? I appreciate you have a lot of money but work gives us more than money, doesn't it?

Original poster
Yougotbale · 18/09/2013 21:18

imp of course. She is buying a house and if that goes well we plan for her to get another, then take it from there.
I'm ok for now. Work is overrated, i may get bored but haven't yet. I play golf and like to go to lots of sporting events. We holiday as much as we can with DP's work commitments. I go in the office and pretend to do stuff and read. I'm fine, this may change but I'm one of those people that can do nothing quite happily.

OP posts:
littleredberry · 18/09/2013 21:33

I'm looking at this from your dp's position. My husband has a lot if assets. I have no properties but have managed to save a significant amount due to his good financial position.

Since we got married he (we) bought a family house together which I own a joint share of (he put in everything, me nothing). I would have signed a prenup because obviously I knew we were getting married for love. However, I would have felt hurt if he had wanted to. As it turns out he never wanted me to.

My feeling is that maybe your just not really at the right point in your relationship for marriage? I think if you really trusted her you would worry more about how she feels about this situation now. I think on the whole prenups don't really stand for much legally anyway unless she leaves you on the honeymoon!

Original poster
Yougotbale · 18/09/2013 21:41

I get why she doesn't like it but I'm being realistic. If they weren't there we would still get married. It's more of a mind set of treating those particular assets like a child from a previous life, before I met her. If it was a child, whilst we were together she would have access to them. However, if we split they would be nothing to do with her. She may get used to them or even attached to them but she wouldn't have rights to them.
You didn't offer to sign one though?

OP posts:
jellymaker · 18/09/2013 21:47

Woh. If you need a pre nup, you are not ready to marry. End of . Marriage is a life long commitment . You are already doubting that you can commit to her. She frankly deserves better.

HawthornLantern · 18/09/2013 21:54

(Apologies for length of post)

DP had a very painful and expensive divorce, so in the unlikely event we ever married, there would certainly be a pre-nup and that would not upset me. So I’m not opposed in principle and I’m not unsympathetic.

But I think that as a younger woman and with a partner who has wealth but is making a clear indication that he wants to with-hold that wealth in the event of a split, then I would feel that there was an essential with-holding from me in the marriage.... and I wouldn’t be happy.

So if a marriage goes ahead with a pre-nup (if that’s possible – you really need legal advice – marriage being one of the major property contracts that exist), it might at the very least make sense that it reflects the circumstances of the break up. What if, for example, you simply decide to leave her for a younger model when you are 15-20 years down the line? (I’m sure that’s the last thing on your mind, but it’s not unknown and might not be anything at all that she’d “done wrong.”). You would get to protect all your lovely assets and she would get what? Half of whatever she’s saved while in the marriage? (What if you go bonkers and run up massive debts that she has to share, but your previous assets are still safely ring-fenced?) Knowing this is a legally possible future outcome won’t do much to make your DP feel loved and valued in the here and now and it may make her feel less “team” like in the marriage itself.

And while I am sure your DP loves you for yourself and not your assets and would love you just as much if you were penniless, it is a very different proposition to hear “I love you but I am protecting myself from you financially.” It’s logical but it doesn’t communicate love, trust and fidelity.

I think what I am saying is that if you want to segregate one area of your partnership (a major part of your finances) you may end up finding that you are undermining the potential depth of your union in other areas. Segregation may be sensible and financially wise, but the real cost may end up being paid in other areas. Afterall, finances aren’t just logical things, they are emotional too – they frequently represent security and trust.

And a difference of view on finances is often cited as one of the major causes of breakdown of partnerships. So I do think the two of you need to see completely eye to eye on this before marriage to give yourselves the very best chance for (I hope) a long and happy future together.

Original poster
Yougotbale · 18/09/2013 21:55

jelly I'm not doubting the commitment. I could make the same life long commitment without getting married. The commitment isn't an issue. It's just that any numbers of things could happen during a marriage. People do change in their thinking, outside stresses, illness, all manor of things could effect a relationship. Why do you think it would be so bad to have a prenup, without any kids involved?

OP posts:
Original poster
Yougotbale · 18/09/2013 22:02

hawthorn I agree. I wouldn't get married without it all being sorted. I'm starting to think not getting married would be easier lol. It's only restricting stuff from before I met her. I will probably use some of it during our relationship(as I am doing now). It's not off limits (whilst we are together). And anything we earn or purchase together will be completely joint. Apart from the house/s she will purchase in her name during our relationship

OP posts:
ApocalypseThen · 18/09/2013 22:05

Listen, you're determined to either marry with a prenup or not marry. No matter how many circles this thread goes around, you're firm on that point. I don't understand what exactly you want here. Your mind is made up, do whatever you think yourself.

I wouldn't marry someone with your attitude, but it takes all sorts.

littleredberry · 18/09/2013 22:14

It's more about what she wants. You seem to have decided which is fine. I would feel a bit insecure and like it wasn't a real partnership. I value trust very highly, however this doesn't seem a very trusting attitude towards your dp.

4 years isn't that long to be together in my opinion. Maybe you should just postpone the engagement? No offence intended, but if children are not on the cards then there is no real rush.

Original poster
Yougotbale · 18/09/2013 22:15

apocolypse I suppose you are right. I was only replying to other people's posts. I wanted to see if there was a stigma around it and people's view points on. And any legal knowledge on it. Whether it was unreasonable to protect previous earnings. The best way to communicate it to my DP. And whether you would marry someone with my attitude, that was it really.

Why would you write, 'I don't understand what you want here'. I'm not harming anyone, I was replying. If you join the site you can use it.

OP posts:
HawthornLantern · 18/09/2013 22:15

One further thought. I have zero idea if you can make a pre-nup stick under English law but in the US (DP is American) if you have an inheritance then that is segregated in the event of a divorce...unless you have done something with that inheritance that makes it a joint asset of the marriage. One of DP's friends used his family inheritance to pay for a holiday home shortly before his wife started divorce proceedings and as a result the asset was seen as marital and not inheritance when it came to division of assets. So my point is that if you freely use your "pre-marriage" assets when in the marriage it seems possible (depending on what exactly you do of course) that they would end up deemed as marital assets anyway. It's an angle that may be worth asking about. It may be that, financially, marriage won't work for you. I hope not, and I do wish you both all the best.

Original poster
Yougotbale · 18/09/2013 22:17

Cheers. Thanks for taking time to post. You win the longest post award

OP posts:
Original poster
Yougotbale · 18/09/2013 22:21

littlered it's definitely something to think about. We need more discussion. I may change my viewpoint

OP posts:
littleredberry · 18/09/2013 22:29

I think a good talk about things would really help. And then talk some more. It's easy to spend the whole time second guessing what the other thinks and means. The only way to get to the bottom of things is to keep communicating. I would definitely want to double check on the children front too. I have had friends who have drastically changed their minds and it has essentially ended their marriage.

Basically it's just worth checking you are on the same page. Better to find out now if you are not than 5-10 years time.

Original poster
Yougotbale · 18/09/2013 22:34

If she did want children (change her mind) it would be in the next 5 years for sure. I imagine before she is 40. We do discuss it regularly and she hasn't changed her opinion on that yet. We will see though

OP posts:
ODearMe · 18/09/2013 22:34

I have signed a pre-nup.

It is a tough one because I see both sides:

a. you want to protect what is rightly yours.
b. it takes away from the romance as you are in effect planning your divorce before you have tied the knot!

My advice to you is this if you go through with it:

  1. Organise the agreement way in advance of your wedding. You will not want this hanging over you the week before you tie the knot. Plus, it is more likely to stand up in court if careful thought is given to it, otherwise it could be deemed as her signing under duress the closer it is signed to wedding date.
  1. Organise legal representation for her as well as yourself. Legally, the pre-nup is more likely to stand up in court if she has had independent advice too. As this is your idea, it might be a gesture for you to pay for her solicitor.
  1. Be absolutely sure what you want to go into the agreement before you draw up the document and be sure she agrees. Otherwise, solicitor costs will escalate and you will have a huge bill on your hands. The are expensive and charge for every email they read, send, phone call they make and receive.
  1. It might be worth putting a clause in there that says you do not have to maintain her in the event of divorce.
  1. Your OH will require a lot of reassurance and love from you that you take a statistical stance on relationship breakdowns and are simply being practical. You could even word it that the document will protect her as much as it is protects you.
  1. Put measures in place to ensure she feels your home belongs to her as well etc. etc She may begin to feel resentful after you are married as she may not feel like your equal.

Good luck with whatever you do!

Original poster
Yougotbale · 18/09/2013 22:39

odearme that's sounds like good advise if I do go through with it. Plenty of angles to think about. Plenty of perspectives to ponder. Cheers

OP posts:
Ugenie · 18/09/2013 22:40

You need to take a step back. You see your options as:

  1. Getting married with a Pre-nup
  2. Not getting married

When DH and I decided to marry. We thought of our options as:

  1. Getting married with a Pre-nup
  2. Getting married without a Pre-nup

DH had more assets and was (is) earning much more. I brought up the Pre-nup just because I thought that it would be something that he thought of but couldn't bring himself to tell me about.

We talked about it, and decided that we didn't need one. We don't intend to separate but should this happen, we trust each other to behave appropriately.

Do you trust your DP? If you do not trust her fully, you are not ready for marriage.

TalkativeJim · 18/09/2013 22:43

So your partner is around or less than 35?

Grin shelve everything. I would not at all rely on the fact that she considers that she will never want children. Not at all.

Charlottehere · 18/09/2013 22:44

If you love her, forget the PN.

Original poster
Yougotbale · 18/09/2013 22:52

ugenie of course marriage with no prenup is an option. I do trust her. And I am helping her purchase her own assets. Things that she may want to leave to her nieces and nephews. Her own legacy. I was just wanting to leave my previous earnings out of it. If we stay together then it will be academic. I do use my previous earnings to help us live.

talkative she is pretty sure at this moment in time.

OP posts:
Original poster
Yougotbale · 18/09/2013 22:59

charlotte I'm maybe leaning that way. I bet you have loved people in your life and at that moment of being in love wanted to share everything. Maybe you were planning for/discussing wedding babies. But things change. Maybe you don't even speak to them, wouldnt even want to look at them. I just think I'd be silly not to protect something I'd amassed before even knowing about her. Don't get me wrong though I have shared a great deal in this relatioship

OP posts:
Ugenie · 18/09/2013 23:15

Sometimes life is about taking risks. Marriage is one of these times.

If you are keen on the Pre-nup surely she knows you well enough to understand your motives.

Pre-nup would not have been a deal breaker for me to be honest. However the absence of one makes me realise that DH doesn't want a plan B.

Are you in business? You may want to read Petrodel v Prest...

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