Should strangers really be advising women to leave their husbands?

[mamabrownbear]

On many threads on MN the general default response seems to always be LTB. I find this really sad and potentially dangerous.

Yes obviously there are situations when it would be best for everyone involved to end the relationship.

However, sometimes I think it's tired exhausted women needing someone to understand them, sympathise and help. Not judge on what little facts a stranger gives you and tell them to make life altering decisions.
Personally I don't think I could advise anyone to leave their partner unless their well being or children's is in danger. I wouldn't want to influence a friends decision on that, let alone a stranger.

I get the impression there are a lot of strong women out there and MN is a safe place to discuss problems. But the solutions on offer seem very black and white sometimes.

I expect to get flamed but it does upset me when a woman is told to leave her partner by people who don't know the full story. We used to be able to talk to our partners and figure things out. Yes life is short but its also hard work sometimes but hopefully worth it...

Sometimes the responses do seem very black and white. But what else can strangers give? I don't think that even the most distressed OP would believe they would get a response tailored to them specifically. All that can be commented on are the facts the OP picks out. And more often than not they are the deal breakers.

When I was with my EA,FA and PA ex, I remember one incident where he stole my credit card and withdrew £600 cash. I called police and he was arrested for assaulting the officers that responded (he still had the money so I got it back.) Anyway, my parents were round later that day, while he was still in the police station, I told them what happened, and my own mother told me I should work it out with him!!

I stayed with him for a further 18months and had DD1 before I found the strength to leave. My own mother knew he beat me, she knew he paid nothing into the house. She knew how bad he treated me and still she believed that was better than me being single.

If I had posted on mumsnet then....well, my life wouldn't necessarily be better now, but I would have been supported in my feeling that it wasn't right and that I deserved better.

I agree there is a place for LTB BTW ..if cruelty/violence/infidelity are involved

I agree MadBus - on MN the angle is more often "Well why isn't he..." and encouraging posters to look at what that is actually saying about their DH/DP's attitude.

"Why don't you make a rota for the housework" becomes
"Why doesn't he feel the housework is his responsibility" or "Why doesn't he respect the work that you do"

Which could be a catalyst for LTB, or it could be a useful discussion opener to open the DH's eyes to his own privilege and blinkered view. From there (or if this has already happened a million times with no dice) then it goes onto "Well, is this relationship actually working and productive for both of us, or just for you?"

I have used housework as a specific example because it is a common one that can either be caused by general male privilege not really thinking OR it can be a symptom of abuse when the man believes the woman exists only to serve him.

Same for DHs who think nothing of going out more, doing very little childcare, all of those other things which can be a misunderstanding/non thinking thing but can also be a symptom of a severe attitude problem and potential abuse.

I was very glad of the LTB posts I received at the end of July after finding out about my husbands affair with best friend. We had had a very loving relationship of 20 years, I had had a very traumatic few months of thinking he was breaking down and being sooo concerned about his mental health, so it had got to the point even on learning about the affair, I was still more worried about him. The LTB's helped me get perspective that none of what I was experiencing was acceptable, and to accept no matter what was going on in his head, I needed to protect myself and daughter. I was in shock and still am, and the advice really helped. Starting divorce paperwork today.

Honestly, this topic again?

First of all, what you're describing is not what I see on these boards. The times I think that 'LTB' is posted too hastily or unreasonably are very few.

And secondly, the reason that MN may seem 'black and white' is that is differs from the prevailing culture which is all about women being saints and martyrs, putting up with it, keeping families together and striving to 'understand' their men.

I think MN is a necessary corrective to all of that. For many posters it is probably the first time anyone has considered their feelings, wants and needs as having as much validity as those of everyone else in the family.

Being pretty new to mumsnet I've found it generally very supportive and usually people are pretty considered in their advice - and notably, a lot of advice comes from people who've got a lot of experience.

There are times when it seems a few people think all men are bastards and I think that maybe some of the advice is a bit glib now and then, but mainly as someone said above, experienced people can see from the outside the warning signs and how things tend to develop and the advice seems genuine and thought-through.

Having said that it also seems really important to remember that we generally only ever hear one side of the story. Sometimes you can see from specific incidents that things really aren't right in a relationship - unfixably wrong - but I do sometimes wonder about the other side of the story.

I think there should be a much, much stronger MNHQ warning at the top of all Relationships threads, pointing out that black-and-white thinking prevails.

People seem to be saying that extreme views are a necessary corrective to mainstream thought - if that's so, then MNHQ should make it clear that that is what is to be expected on this particular board.

Again?

Let's just say that 80% of all marriages/relationships are blissfully happy. How many of the women in those are going to post on the relationships board of MN? Very few (unless in response to a thread).

The people starting threads on this board are seriously unhappy. They do not represent most relationships, and therefore the men described in them to not represent most men. Therefore the advice on here is not skewed or anti male or any of those other criticisms.

If you had an equal number of men posting threads, you'd probably get an equal number of responses telling him to leave her. Presumably that would make some posters feel better, but no one should lose sight of the fact that most people's relationships problems aren't anywhere near bad enough to have bothered posting in the first place, so the responses on here say absolutely NOTHING about most people's attitudes to relationships in general.

People seem to be saying that extreme views are a necessary corrective to mainstream thought

Not what I said at all. For starters, I don't accept that the views expressed on MN are extreme.

Usually there's a lot of detail in the posts that get the response 'leave the bastard'.

Maybe you could give some examples of behaviour that shouldn't result in advice to leave?

There was someone posting on here last week saying that women treated much better on here than men when it comes to relationship advice but I think that's balls. people (Regardless of sex) are given advice based upon the facts they present in their OP or the information they give in follow up posts.

If someone posts that they are not in love with their partner and they are having an affair or about to have an affair OF COURSE the advice should be 'leave' - it should always be 'leave and then have a relationship' rather than 'stay and just have an affair anyway'.

Telling people to stay in relationships where they are clearly unhappy and are doing something, or are about to do something, that will upset the other person (Like have an affair) is just bad advice.

oh - and there's definitely someone on here at the moment posting different relationship problems trying to prove that men are given a hard time when women aren't.

We used to be able to talk to our partners and figure things out.

If we are able to do that, we don't need to post here.

Most women who get LTB have tired of talking to their partners to no avail.

It's my belief that a lot of posts asking should they leave or asking if partner's behaviour is unreasonable are from women who want to leave but are afraid to do it and want that decision ratified.
This.

And what people often get is not a simple LTB, but be prepared to LTB and make sure he's aware of it if things don't improve or talking to him doesn't work.

I'm not so sure people did talk to their partners and work things out. I think what actually happened is that one person gave up and became steadily more unhappy. Sometimes both.

I actually think that before MN I was much more likely to stay in a relationship that wasn't good but wasn't bad because I felt there had to be a big reason to leave one & you couldn't walk away unless you really justified it.

When actually, you have the right to be happy & if a relationship is making you unhappy & isn't likely to improve then you don't need to justify yourself to anyone.

I really do think that too much emphasis is placed on the idea that you have to work at relationships and try every possible option before calling quits. You may do, but only if you want to & it's worth it.

I wish my DM had been able to come somewhere like MN and get advice to leave. Instead, she stayed in an increasingly abusive relationship which has affected my life and that of my siblings.

I also wish I'd had MN to point out the abuse I was receiving from my XH.

Hear hear Eldritch. And Orchardkeeper.

For those calling for a warning - MNHQ are not responsible for the content of people's posts or for posters' opinions. If you feel that a post is attacking or bullying then you are free to report it. But no, we absolutely do not need a warning that you may find pro-women views here. FFS!

Sometimes even the wisest person can't see all viewpoints when they're on the inside of a situation. Posting on here can help them see things in a different way.
I posted on here a week or so ago about an issue specifically because I knew that I would get varying views on what was going on, and that's exactly what I got (along with some technical knowledge). I got no LTB's because it wasn't necessary but 'talking' on here stopped me from going into a discussion with DH mob handed and throwing accusations around.
As it happens all is well with us, in part thanks to the measured advice I got here.
Many of the posters on here have unfortunately been where the OP is, know the score and can sometimes even predict what will happen next. I've never seen an unecessary LTB.

Like several others here, I got told to LTB, and so I'm grateful for it.
I also got tons and tons of support and advice. No regrets and only thanks for the clear thinking of the Relationships board when I was incapable of it myself.
By the time I posted here, I thought talking to my partner and working things out was still an option. It took others to point out I had done that over and over again and that I was the only one talking and the only one working things out. Alone. I am grateful that the Relationships board effectively gave me the permission that I couldn't get from myself or my family to LTB.

I think the relationship advice on MN is very good. I'm happily married, but would not have known how to react to friends going through abusive relationships (and support them in ltb) if I hadn't read such good advice on MN in the past.

I am also very glad that my DM left my DF when she did. I believe divorce and/or separation is far less harmful to children than growing up in a toxic environment. I have never seen a child harmed by divorce, only by the way their parents behaved during and around the divorce. And usually if the parent cares little enough about the children to be a dick about divorcing, then they were probably being a dick in the marriage as well. Seeing an unhealthy relationship play out is potentially extremely damaging to children.

"just leave him" may be the wake up call someone needs to think -"what? that's ridiculous. of course i dont need to leave him" (i was just having a bad day/so was he/etcetc)

or it might be the wake up call to thnk " hell yes i do have that choice"

you really cant blame an anonymous internet forum for the break up of family life as we know it!

people post, read, then they the poster make a decision one way or the other. they might use posts to validate their thinking or not. if it makes people think and analyse their own thinking (like a good therapist/counsellor who reflects back to the person) then all is good.

had i been on MN about seven eight years ago and posted here I know i would have had the LTB response and probably it would have helped me LTB much much sooner thereby saving a lot of anguish...it was actually a trained profressional counsellor via GP who asked me the question why dont you leave now? (i had said "it's not working but obviously i cannot leave until the dc are grown up bla bla bla" ) that helped me think heck that LTB was an option ... sometimes hearing/reading/being asked why dont you LTB is the kick you need to evaluate everything.

and if you dont need to LTb -well you not going to are you? " iam leaving you because Mn told me to" ... if someone says jump in the fire and it's not right for you you wont do it.

I guess that's where the difference in opinion lies, anyway. People who are scared of "LTB" generally think that children having two parents in the same house is some holy grail, unless one parent is extremely abusive. They believe that separated parents are more damaging than two struggling parents who aren't enjoying their lives/relationship.

I could probably make a sweeping assumption that people who believe this have either never experienced living with a single parent/separated parents, and have never experienced living with two people who are unhappy with each other either.

And people who react strongly to Leave the Bastard are (in my limited experience) often very much more blase about Leave the Bitch.

In our society, men aren't expected to put up with mistreatment from their female partners, whether it is abuse or affairs or whatever. Women generally are expected to put up with those things from men.

Only on MN do I see humane advice that isn't about gender or conventional expectations, more about what is right and bearable for the poster and her/his children.