How much damage is XMIL causing the dcs with her comments?

[McNameChangey]

XMIL has always been a difficult character. XH always avoided her as much as possible and thought she was unpleasant. It should have been no surprise when XH turned out to have a lot of similar character traits. But that's all in the past now.

Sort of.

In the past few weeks the dcs have told me about some incidents whilst with XH. Now whilst these aren't physical abuse, they do amount to potentially dangerous neglect and emotional abuse. I've spoken to NSPCC, HV, GP, SS and a solicitor, all of whom advised me to stop contact until CAFCASS could assess because if something happened and I knew, I would be complicit.

My solicitor wrote to him, he threatened court, I said great, he has yet to apply and now hasn't seen the dcs since early July. I've offered supervised access until a decision can be made.

I want access for the dcs, they do love their dad, but he was sexually, emotionally and physically abusive of me, and I know I am used to being bullied into doing things I'm not happy with, which is why I am deferring to the courts to tell me what is right. I worry I've let the dcs down by not protecting them, but in fairness I have only recently been told the full extent and although I feel terrible guilt I have no choice but to protect them.

A few weeks ago I asked XH if he would consider phoning the dcs regularly (he never had before, he'd see them once a month for a weekend and no contact in between). He is now calling them, but has ignored my offer of supervised access. He does pay maintenance at csa rates regularly.

Sorry, that's all just background.

So, to XMIL. Since we split I have been completely flexible about her seeing the dcs. She usually calls maybe once a fortnight to ask if she can have them for a few hours, and I've never said no (although occasionally suggested another day).

One of the things I had discovered recently is that XMIL's dog had been aggressive towards the dcs within the past 8 months. So since I found this out one of the conditions for them going there is that the dog must be either shut in another room or outside or wherever, but not with the dcs (it's a collie and large and nervy).

So, to the comments she has stated:-
Her "I see mum has a new car? You must be well off"
Ds1 "erm, no not really"
Her "no, that'll be XH's money paying for it"
(I've just sold my 4 year old car for a 10 year old one and some extra cash)

Her "why won't your mum let you see your dad? He's devastated and there's no reason for it"
Ds1 "I don't know anything about it"

Ds2 (only 8) "why did mum and dad split up?"
Ds1 (who remembers but shouldn't have said it) "because dad was ill and used to get angry"
Her "that's not true! Your mum gets depressed (ds1 didn't know this since my depression had never crossed into abuse and he saw the two as synonymous), it's not just XH's fault!"
(The party line throughout had been a simple mum and dad don't love each other anymore, no blame has ever been attributed)

Her "you can't come to my house anymore because your mum has banned you from seeing the dog. The dog who loves you and is in no way dangerous"
(I have witnesses who have seen xmil physically restraining said dog whilst it tried to bite dd in the face)

Anyway that's a few of them. She can't understand why I won't consider mediation (solicitor said that given the abuse I suffered it would never be recommended for me), clearly thinks I'm a money grabbing evil bitch who abandoned her son whilst he was ill with depression.

I've never told her all the things he did. She wouldn't believe me anyway (even if I showed her the texts he sent admitting it, and the notes he wrote apologising for it). I suspect XH hasn't applied to the courts because he might be faced with evidence of who he is and that might get back to his mother.

My worry is that the dcs are being damaged by her snide remarks about me. Ds1 just rolls his eyes and says "grandma was bitching about you again", but ds2 is very literal and believes what he is told. He was very young when it all happened, and although he was scared of XH, that has faded and he now adores him.

XMIL is a very aggressive woman who would deny saying any of the above if confronted.

It's usually only one small comment a visit, it's not constant. And other than this the dcs enjoy going to play there.

Any advice at all on any aspect would be great.

Thanks for getting through that mammoth post.

Its time to go no contact. write everything down, your doing everything you can. stick with it, I hope things improve soon.

I would stop contact personally, your XMIL is making an attempt at poisoning your DC's against you.

It will seriously damage them and their relationship with you if it continues.

I would go no contact as well.

She has no rights in law to insist that she gets contact.

If she wishes to see her DGC she can do so when he DS has his contact. If he doesn't seek to get it, that's their problem as a family to face.

Ordinarily, it's great if separated parents can maintain links with PILs directly for the sake of the children, but in this case the situation with the dog alone would have me putting my foot down, let alone the snide remarks that can cause the DC anxiety, stress and guilt.

Bugger :(

I do feel sorry for her in some ways. Her son lies to her and calls her sobbing about how terrible I am. She knows nothing of the truth of our relationship, or the truth of his actions. She is very much putting her ds before her dgcs, but thinks that she's trying to fix things. I do believe she thinks that I am poisoning the dcs against their dad (on the contrary, I often tell them that he loves them etc), and that by criticising me she's giving them a balanced view. Unfortunately she is very wrong.

Its not her job to sort it out, its been you and your XH, if you XH cant be arsed to sort his end out, then theres nothing else you can do.

Ezio she can't keep her nose out of it.

I think she's going mad at the lack of control she has. She's polite to my face, but I swear if she gritted her teeth anymore I think they'd shatter. She knows I hold the cards and she can't cope with that at all. So her poor ds is the victim.

She can think whatever she wants, but when it comes to laying all that shit onto 2 innocent children, then thats when the contact has gotta stop.

You dont involve children in adult issues, and thats what she is doing.

She may well have good intentions and be privy to a version of events heavily skewed by her DS. She's not necessarily a bad person and my genuinely believe she's doing the right thing. But the road to hell, and all that. Your loyalty is not to a possibly-nice-but-misguided grown woman, but your young-and-vulnerable DC.

For most people, blood is thicker than water. I doubt very much that even full disclosure would result in this woman seeing the 'truth' about her DS. She has a vested interest in painting you as the villain.

may genuinely believe, not my

Ezio she is. There's another complication too. She works in the school and had spoken to ds1 inappropriately there. I have spoken to the HM about it and he promised to speak to her, but I've not heard any more (she hasn't approached him since). My worry is that I cannot stop all contact because she has access outside of my control.

"XMIL has always been a difficult character. XH always avoided her as much as possible and thought she was unpleasant"

If even your ex thinks she is unpleasant and has tried to avoid her, why are you allowing her unsupervised access?

I would suggest that you get yourself some counselling and maybe The Freedom Programme? You need to learn to assert your boundaries.

Sorry but well done for what you have done so far.

Dahlen, I agree. She is of the type that if she found her ds standing over a body, holding a knife, saying "I'm glad I killed you, you deserved it", she would rationalise it all away and wouldn't believe her ds could do such a thing.

Mummytime, because she was always a (seemingly) good wholesome grandma to the dcs. The issues seemed more normal clash-of-parenting type things, rather than actively
Emotionally abusing them. Which is how I see her actions.

You need to speak to her. Tell her what you've told us. Explain about her son

I'd give her a chance.... Make it clear it's last chance

You might need her to supervise contact one day.

Heysoulsister, I couldn't ever trust her to supervise contact, as her ds can do no wrong. It would be ideal if that was an option.

I honestly don't think she'd listen. I think she'd say ds1 is lying (she has said this before when he was upset by something she'd said). I've been hoping with how things are she would be on best behaviour. But I don't know if she's capable of keeping the dcs out of it.

Bump for any more views

This may be really stupid, and please completely ignore me if you want to.

Could you write her a letter telling her everything, all the abuse, the lot. Also, telling her that what you tell the children is simply that daddy loves them but mum and dad don't love each other any more. Then tell her that you would like her to keep to this with the children as you and she both know how damaging and confusing it is to a child when either parent is criticised in front of them.

If you really want to, you can send that off and give her one last chance to behave.

Jux, not stupid at all. I've been considering writing her a letter, not explaining the past but covering the fact that her criticising me upsets the dcs; that I have never criticised XH to them; that the party line is as explained; that I believe XH has not told her the full story but that I do not believe it is my place to (maybe leave that out); that my intention with the dog is to protect the dcs, not keep them away from her; that by involving the dcs in any discussion of XH's distress or contact arrangements she is hurting them; that SS and NSPCC and gp and HV and solicitor all agree that court is the answer and given XH's history mediation would never be suitable; that I am eager for XH to start the ball rolling with regards to court so that some kind of stable access can be arranged; that XH pays the legal minimum of maintenance and this is not a subject for discussion; that she must respect that the dcs love everyone involved and that she is hurting them by not considering their feelings; and finally that if she continues to choose to interfere I will have no choice but to protect the dcs and cease access.

She will go ballistic if she receives that.

But it might be for the best. Any ideas on how to phrase it in a non-confrontational, but firm way?

A letter to such a damaged person will be a waste of time. Such people never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions.

I am not altogether surprised that his mother is like this; the apple did not fall far from the tree. She will defend her son to the bitter end.

She has had more than enough chances, your job is to protect your children from such malign influences. Both your ex H and his mother are toxic and thus are to be avoided at all costs.

Attila, you're probably right. She has never apologised for anything, ever.

I know I'm being too nice. I know I'm bending over backwards to try to keep contact going. She has kept the dog away on the last few visits, but that's because I've given her no choice.

Why do they have to be so toxic?

You have been way too reasonable with regards to your ex MIL and you and the children are currently paying the price as a result.

You seem very reasonable and like many such people perhaps wanted to keep contact going because you wanted the children to have some sort of a relationship with the grandparent (societal convention does play a part in such decisions). However, not all grandparents are kind and loving and your ex MIL certainly is not. Such people do not make for being good grandparents. Grandparents as well do not have automatic rights to access.

If she is too toxic/difficult for you to deal with, she is certainly too toxic for your children to have any form of contact with. Contact between your children and ex MIL must cease forthwith. Your children are getting nothing at all positive from this relationship.

It is not your fault ex MIL are like this, you did not make her this way.

I hadn't meant a letter like that, tbh. I had meant just stating the facts, what you said up there is all justification and 'please play nice' iyswim, but you really don't need to do that and it's better you don't. However, what I didn't say in my first post was that it's likely to be a waste of time anyway.

I see, I should know better after years of justifying myself to XH. Bloody hell.

I spoke to ds1 about it earlier, he says the last comment was only in his hearing, and he wishes he'd stood up for me poor lad. I told him that's not his job, it's her job to behave like a reasonable adult. I think it's getting him down.

I am so glad I divorced that family.

But in all honesty I'm finding it hard to make the concrete decision to stop all access. I feel spineless. I can't seem to quite get it into my thick head that she's not just criticising me (I can take it) she's hurting the children.

Help me grow a backbone and see the consequences.

What if she does go through the courts? They have an existing relationship. She is a respected member of the local community. What then?

Grandparents in this country have no automatic rights of access to their grandchildren.

So what if she is a so called respected member of the community; abusive people can be quite plausible to those in the outside world. She has also never apologised nor taken any responsibility for her actions. It is no surprise to me at all that her son i.e your ex H is the same, the rotten apple did not fall far from the rotten tree.

Contact between your ex H's family and your own unit now must cease forthwith. Its already getting your son down, your son needs positive role models, not toxic grandparents.

The well-intentioned parent ends up feeling mortified for having done more harm than good by hoping things would somehow be different — instead of having a child who simply never knew their grandparents and who was never mistreated, they have an abused child who is now also being torn apart by the grief involved in having to sever a lifelong relationship with the unhealthy people they are very attached to.

By criticising you and attempting to poison them against their only care giver, she is attempting to damage your children, even if she is not succeeding. I think you can see the impact this is having on your older DS already. You need to cut her out for them.

And go again to the school and explain that you have chosen for her not to have contact and under no circumstances is she to even speak to your children.