Overcoming the influence of a narc parent..but at what cost?

[Capitaltrixie]

Feel like I've made a breakthough. The majority of feelings of doubt, insecurity, being abnormal and unlovable have for the first time in my life that I can remember been replaced by empowered feelings and a higher sense of self-worth. This has coincided with me distancing myself from my mum, not physically (she helps out with childcare), but emotionally and by rising above when she tries to draw me into unhealthy behaviours.

My mum is, I suppose, quite a subtle narc, she is a smother mother who almost, to outsiders, would appear to love us too much. Yet, she treated me like her possession for years and previously I always felt like a dependant puppet who couldn't survive without her help (she always seemed happier when I was upset because I needed her). Well, no more.

Just wondered -any tips for silencing the residual doubts? doubts I assume which tend to be inherent with children of narc parents (something about not having the chance to develop a good, healthy sense of self and individuality maybe..). I'm dealing with the guilt but it's difficult; I'm currently the black sheep in the family because I've put my foot down, but I care a helluva lot less than I used to
My relationship with her and my step-dad is terrible though. I guess that's the cost...

What is your mother like with your children?. I would think long and hard about this. If she is narcissistic in terms of personality I would be finding someone else to help with the childcare and not use her at all.

You've made and continue to make much progress although you have your ups and downs.

To my mind it is not possible to have any sort of relationship with a narcissist; they are truly masters of come closer so I can help you again.

Thanks Atilla, I think deep down I know you're right..it just makes me sad that we really can't have any sort of a relationship; she is so manipulative (but very subtle with it), that it literally shocks me sometimes.

DC are very little (1&3) so I guess I haven't felt it's that much of an issue and I do limit the time she spends with them, but yes, I do worry. I think, regardless of the progress I've made, I still can't quite stomach not allowing them to have a relationship...

She does say worrying things though like 'DD1 seems a very anxious child' (if you could have an opposite of anxious, DD1 would be it)

First of all WELL DONE for coming so far, for feeling more comfortable with asserting yourself and creating healthy boundaries which are acceptable to you. All of this is hard work and can be extremely painful and yes, the guilt is such a hard thing to manage.

You speak about how your mother probably looks to others, and 'doubts I assume which tend to be inherent with children of narc parents'. You're absolutely right - children of narcs are brought up to consider other people's feelings as much more important than their own, with the narc's feeling being most important of all. It's a long tough road learning to acknowledge that you have feelings of your own, that that is ok and healthy and normal, and that it is perfectly fine if other people feel differently to you because it doesn't undermine your feelings. You are entitled to feel however you do. Other people will always think what they like and remember, they don't know your mother in the way that you do. Narcs are excellent at presenting a particular image to other people which reflects only a small part of their personality.

I'm 3 years into a course of psychotherapy and I've made lots of progress too but I'm still battling depression and anxiety and feelings of self-doubt. I find that they come and go, in waves. I don't have them all the time, which means that I'm involved in a process of letting them go. It's bloody hard stuff and don't underestimate how shattering it all is. Keep posting and keep talking to people who you know you can trust, and know that by distancing yourself from your mother, you are doing a really good thing for yourself and your children

I have the same situation with my mother. Hated me being independent and preferred me being unhappy (and single!!) so I needed her. She would interferer with every aspect of my life so i ended up moving away from her and all my friends to escape. i had met great friend through university who really helped me.

My mother is bi polar and her depression really affected my childhood. Unfortunately our relationship broke down completely after she tired to split up my relationship with my BF now DH. After no contact at all for 18months I found out she had been to councillors and she got help with her controlling personality. We are ok now.. Mainly because she wants to see her granddaughter (and we live 2 hours apart). Be strong try to force a change. Being financially and emotionally independent helps... Remember you are doing the right thing. We are allowed to be happy and remove ourselves from abusive relationships!! Good luck

'I know I have mentioned it many times but my own DM regularly got "cancer" when seriously challenged.'

It's almost funny the lengths that narcs will go to. My narc mother had some medical tests a few years ago and was actually disappointed that she didn't have cancer. Her exact words were 'I can't believe I don't have cancer what with everything I have to go through'. The 'everything' being that her adult children have lives of their own and don't run to her for every little thing any more.

You really do have to handle them the way you would a 2 year old who has thrown themselves on the floor and is screaming blue murder. It's bloody exhausting though

Thanks Viking, we're sisters then . I've seen the 'Daughters of Narcissistic Mothers' website which was hugely informative, but not that forum; I'll definitely check it out.

I'm doing exactly what you said actually; not asking any opinions, not discussing other family members with her or engaging in any gossip, being polite, yet indifferent.
That's terrible about cancer! I feel completely by that. Sounds like you've got an excellent handle on things though.

Boundaries has changed my life too, I'm now in my first healthy romantic relationship, but taking it slowly. It's amazing how unhealthy my prev relationships were when I had no boundaries! Thanks again for the luck and advice. Helps to know I'm not alone in the journey

Thanks Lottapianos . Your our experience does sound similar Thumper, that's great that you've found a way to have a relationship with you mum whilst (most importantly) being happy yourself.

It's a strange new experience considering my own feelings and doing things in line with my own values and within my boundaries..but I like it!

Hope the psychotherapy continues to be helpful Lottapianos.

The cancer thing is still to me!

I see lots of references to toddlers with regards to narcissists but toddlers grow up.

I found this excerpt helpful:-
"Having a narcissist for a mother is a lot like living under the supervision of a six-year-old. Narcissists are always pretending, and with a narcissistic mother it's a lot like, "Let's play house. I'll pretend to be the mother and you pretend to be the baby," though, as the baby, you'll be expected to act like a doll (keep smiling, no matter what) and you'll be treated like a doll as an inanimate object, as a toy to be manipulated, dressed and undressed, walked around and have words put in your mouth; something that can be broken but not hurt, something that will be dropped and forgotten when when something more interesting comes along. With narcissists, there's also usually a fair element of "playing doctor," as well of childish sexual curiosity that may find expression in "seductive" behavior towards the child, such as inappropriate touching of the genitals, or it can also come out as "hypochondriacal" worries about the child's health and/or being most interested and attentive when the child is ill (thus teaching the child that the way to get Mother's kind attention is to get sick). Having a sick child can also be a way for the narcissistic mother to get the sympathetic attention of authority figures, such as doctors and teachers".

Have any of you also noticed that narcissistic people really do not have any ideas or opinions of their own?. They always seem to lean on others for everything and pass off their ideas as their own.

Oh dear Viking!

My mum had a go at me when, in my early twenties, I moved out as I was 'leaving her'. She also told me you can't tell which way I'm facing as I'm like an ironing board now I would undeniably like to be more voluptuous, but coming from my mother, it's a little harsh to hear!

Your post is uncanny Atilla, spot on.

Yes, my mum appears feisty but is influenced by my step-dad. There is something a little vacant about her..(feel a bit bad saying that but heigh ho!)

'Have any of you also noticed that narcissistic people really do not have any ideas or opinions of their own?'

This is my dad 100%. He reads stuff in newspapers or hears other people's opinions that he likes the sound of, and then tells them to you, almost with a fanfare, like it's the most wonderful thing that anyone has ever said ever. But if you try to get into a discussion about it, or proffer a different opinion he just totally ignores you and that is end of the conversation. It's bizarre how I only realised this was weird behaviour in the last couple of years.

Did anyone else have a vague sense when they were growing up that something was 'not quite right' within the family, but unable to put your finger on it? And probably internalised it all and thought that you were the weird one?

That quote is great Attila

My mum is like that Lotta, except when we had a discussion about politics recently, she didn't ignore me, but got in a proper mood when I had a different opinion to her! (How dare I!!?!)

'Did anyone else have a vague sense when they were growing up that something was 'not quite right' within the family'
YES. Thought I was definitely the weird one.

Did anyone else have experience of being the emotional prop/therapist for a narc parent at a scarily young age?

Sorry Viking, posted before I saw yours. Hear hear re: the adult worries.

I'm definitely going to monitor the situation with DC as I can well imagine my mum doing the same with them when they're older! (that's flipping harsh btw)

'Did anyone else have experience of being the emotional prop/therapist for a narc parent at a scarily young age?'

Yes! My sister and I were our mother's marriage counsellors from the age of 10 or so. Every chance she got, she would tell us what an utter bastard my dad was and how miserable she was etc etc. To be fair, he is a narc as well and his behaviour within the family was often deeply shit, but I don't think I will ever forgive her for leaning so heavily on us and telling us things we should not have heard at such a young age. And of course, we had to listen to all this crap about what a bastard he was, but couldn't let on in front of him - had to play 'happy families' at all times. I am still so angry about it. It was such abusive behaviour.

It's a really horrible term, but I read somewhere about 'emotional incest', where the parent/adult demands that the child does things to support them emotionally that the child is not ready for, and involves reversing the parent/child roles. This went on loads in my family. It helps me to think about how very abnormal and unhealthy my family was and helps me to justify my anger and rage.

I am pulling away and standing up to DM a lot more in recent years - I think I am getting a backbone and some self-esteem, that I can have valid opinions and am doing pretty ok in my life despite her. (I am physically distant, which does help).

But she has had heart troubles, has IBS and diverticulitis, and recently (last 2 years) was dx'd with diabetes. She changed heart dr as "he told me to eat less, lose weight and exercise" as her main treatment - she wanted someone more sympathetic and willing to just prescribe her some pills but say there was something wrong she could get sympathy for! IBS and diverticulitis kick in anytime anyone challenges her on anything difficult, call her on her nasty behaviours, or she feels overwhelmed and undervalued in life (like if she invites us all to the house, but then she feels ignored at all - she will huff off to her room and be "indisposed" for hours while we all tiptoe around her!). We are getting less willing to do the tip-toeing though, and once we give her a cup of tea to "hope she feels ok soon", we all get on with what we want to do, organise meals to suit regular lives and timetables, and head out to do things as a group of adult siblings rather than scared kids to be dictated to. Admittedly, she is eating a bit better because of the diabetes, but will still scoff a half box of chocs in a sitting without even realising it (and will then blame US for eating all of our dear DSis's chocs - even DSis who got them is raising eyebrows as she knows we all had one each while DM kept eating and asking for box back at her end of the table).

Yesterday, I got a phonecall as DM and DSis drove to my city to go to an extended family event near me. "Did I want to participate in a joint birthday present for DAunt's significant birthday (that they missed 4 months ago!) - we bought her X already, and did I have a card they could sign from us all as well?" (they'd forgotten to get that and no option on Sunday morning to get en route). Well, I said no, I had already bought and given DAunt a present at the time (I was at the family celebration - they weren't, I don't know why), and I also told DSis that if she DID want to organise joint presents, that was fine but she needed to get agreement on them BEFORE purchasing, on the present and the budget, and not give the rest of us a fait accompli. And that I would find some kind of card (most of mine are very colourful and cheerful, not appropriate in this case - I had 1 that just about worked).

The same DSis is trying to persuade us all to go in with her on a picture for DDad birthday or DParents anniversary, that she bought last New Years to go with another we had just given for their anniversary a few days before. I don't like it, wasn't involved in choosing the original but knew that and was ok with them choosing as I had agreed to go in on it and couldn't be there to choose - but I really don't want to get a second one. DSis is just trying to be "the peacemaker, the person holding the family together" in a very PA way, and not actually by bringing people together but dictating what we will all do. (And she is not the eldest, just the one who is single and has recently moved back home, and thinks she knows best for us all but is quite bitchy talking to us about other family members, and very demanding of our time, money and energy - without acknowledging that the rest of us have other committments - and always gives out about not hearing from us but it's up to us to contact her as she is always out with friends and never returns any calls or emails).

Sorry, this turned into a cathartic rant but I am pulling away from them. I have rented a house near them for Christmas this year, so that I have personal space but we still do the family gathering. And I am learning to stand up for myself - but I am always ready for both DM and that particular DSis to turn on me (as both have done in the past and I expect it to happen again soon).

Last week, in fact, I had to say to that DSis that the house we're renting is tiny - she was expecting to stay in it over Christmas (when she lives at home - she thought it would be too crowded with other siblings home), offering to stay on the couch (which is tiny and she doesn't get up in the mornings so we'd have no use of the kitchen/sitting room when DD is a VERY early riser) and also offered DMum the use of the kitchen in MY rented house to prepare for their anniversary party without even asking me.

I have already told her that there is no space - but now that I know the au pair will not be staying in the 2nd twin bed, I will have to be brutally frank with her to say no one is staying. And that I am not having it over-run the whole time - we have to see both my AND DH's families, and I have had too hard a year so really, really need some time out and headspace to unwind - or I am afraid I really will have a nervous breakdown (I have started to unwind a little this weekend, but over the past 3 weeks, I have cried at work 7 times from pure stress - I can't keep that up). So I am not having anyone apart from DH, DD and I staying in it.

The consistency with the narc traits in our respective parents is astounding!
I also knew the state of my parents marriage Lotta (thanks to 'heart to hearts' with my mum around the same age). It's just grim really. I'm not surprised you're so angry. It's such subtle abuse isn't it...I feel like I've only just began to untangle and make sense of it.

I read that term too recently (thread on here not long ago?). Anger and rage is well justified, I'm glad I realise it for what it is now..

Well done standing up for yourself biddy (blaming you for eating the chocs? whaaat?), Christmas sounds lovely with your DH & DD

It's so tough isn't it?! (but worth it!)

Oh, when there is wine taken late at night, DMom has no self control and also a convenient memory lapse the next morning!! It was very funny as we had all been drinking less, as we were going out into town later, so watched as she scoffed away - DSis even put the lid back on a couple of times and moved the box away from her, but she asked for it back again. But then she gave out to us the next day for eating all of "DSis's special present from class"!!

The first time we rented a house to stay in (Summer hols near them) it was hard as they couldn't understand why. And DSis who lives at home just doesn't understand boundaries. So that is why we are being strong about it. But it doesn't half hurt at the expectation, and then the "lost puppy dog" act, or the alternative "you selfish b*h" response. My suit of armour is getting stronger with time though.

Have any of you also noticed that narcissistic people really do not have any ideas or opinions of their own?

oh yes, my dad constantly regurgitates what he's read in the Daily Mail - if I say "been reading the Daily Mail again?" he goes into one - however I've now distanced myself enough to laugh at him

as far as dealing better with him goes, I've now started treating him like a lab rat ie. "if I do this, I wonder what he will do/will happen" it's quite empowering

The other day he sent me, all my siblings and a couple of his friends an email saying "FYI" and details of a flight to come over in November - that was it, no more information, no "can anyone put me up" "can I stay with you blah blah"

I've worked out that he does it in this way so that we all email back and say "oh you can stay with me if you want"

Anyway, I didn't get into the game, I ignored the email. A couple of days later he phoned and said "did you get my email?"

me: ummm, which one
him: about my flight
me: oh yes I did, it said FYI so I wrote it all down
him: oh right ok
me:
him: Dsis1 has said I can go and stay with her
me: that'll be nice, you'll enjoy that

(in reality I was laughing inside cos I know he was angling to stay with me cos Dsis one is V. high maintenance)

a few days later...

him: did you get my email?
me: ummm, which one
him: about my flight
me: you already asked me that, it said FYI so I wrote it all down
him: oh well I'm getting old and I forgot we had this conversation
me:
him: Dsis1 has said I can go and stay with her
me: that'll be nice, you'll enjoy that

yes we had a complete repeat of the same conversation. Anyway I was proud of myself for not crumbling and asking him to stay. Don't get me wrong if he actually asked outright I'd say yes but I'm not dancing to his tune anymore. It starts off hard but then it gets easier and easier - the power of silence is amazing

Oh Robotlover your conversation did make me laugh I'd be proud too, excellent stuff.

As the current bad sheep in the family at the mo biddy I'm probably getting the 'you selfish b*h' treatment behind my back. But 'suit of armour'! I like it! and good on you, stay strong. Another one is 'flexing the emotional muscles', they just keep getting stronger with time!

I've gone LC with both my narc parents since Christmas. I am much happier for it but also feel guilty from time to time. Part of it is because I desperately want to have a proper extended family, you know the kind you can rely on and hang out with. It's just not the case sadly.

I've also become the black sheep and it's tough feeling excluded even though its my decision IYKWIM. I have to remind myself what they are like and that im doing the right thing. A visit with them usually does it

When I think about the impact they've had on me and how I still, in my mid 30's struggle with my sense of self (& depression/anxiety), it reaffirms it for me. I do not want DS being around the constant, subtle hurtfulness and undermining that I just take in the chin. I want it to be very clear it's not normal or ok to speak to people like that. Mostly though I want him to feel free. You don't have to stay in close contact with people that make you feel shit. Family or not. Quite liberating really.