"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's August 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield: 

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

Would never apologise to her; these people are past masters of "come closer so I can hurt you again".

Best thing you can do for yourself with regards to your mother is to cut her off completely.

I would also suggest Struggling that you see a counsellor, BACP are good but counsellors are like shoes, you need to find someone who fits with you.

FOG - fear, obligation and guilt are three legacies of such toxic parenting. I am not at all surprised that you have guilt but that emotion is truly misplaced in yourself. You have no reason to feel guilty at all; your mother has been on a mission for many years to destroy your very core of being. D'you think she feels guilty - not a bit of it; narcissists have no empathy whatsoever. Your children as well do not get anything at all positive from their grandmother either.

I would not let your Dad off the hook either; he has completely failed to protect your from his wife's excesses of behaviour. Like many such weak men as well he has likely acted out of self preservation and want of a quiet life. Narcissistic women like your mother always but always need a willing enabler to help them.

Thank you. I might go for a run. I need her for some odd child care after school, so going NC not an option.
Obligation is a biggie- I often called round as I felt I should....then came away feeling crap.
She even criticised my boys geox school shoes the other day - saying they won't last 5 minutes.....I've bought them before and I know they outlay any other shoe he's ever had.... But why oh why oes she think its ok to comment???

Because she can. She is still seeing you and the children.

Such damaged people have no empathy whatsoever, the best thing you can do for you and your children who cannot stand her either is to go no contact. A suggestion that is probably impossible for you to contemplate due to your parents conditioning of you but what other choice do you have really?. She has and will continue to wreak your life if you allow her to do so.

I would also urge you to find alternate childcare; if she can say such stuff about your childrens shoes in front of you what rubbish is she filling their heads with when you are not there?. She is using your children as narcissistic supply; she'll get fed up with them soon enough or use them as golden child or scapegoat.

She was a toxic parent to you and she is now a toxic grandparent. These people do not make for being good grandparents, not all grandparents are kind and loving. Your parents certainly are not; your mother is a narcissist and your Dad is her weak and willing enabler.

Mum interesting - she has a favourite out of my 2 children, will openly criticise the other.

That is precisely why your children should not have any contact with her. She will damage your children in the ways that you were harmed as a child; her awful legacy still dogs you now.

Toxic parents more often than not make for being toxic grandparents. They are not good grandparents.

Very true atilla not all grandparents are good grandparents, the blood ties maybe there but in reality if these are people who you wouldn't choose to pick seeing your children if they were unrelated your best off keeping them away from them.

They will be imposing the same damage on your children and history will repeat itself. Pil haven't seen my children for 4 months now and 10 months before that because i decided after much thought they are not the sort of people i want influencing my dc in anyway. I don't rely on them at all, they weren't exactly there in a heartbeat when they were needed anyway.

Struggling. Read the narcissitic mothers site, especially about golden child/scapegoat. My mother favours DS over DD, altho she doesn't outright criticise DD but that's only cos she's only 2.

G2B, you are bound to be struggling, you have faced up to what could have happened to you this weekend. Ultimately it will strengthen BOTH you and struggling's position and overall wellbeing.

I read DONM and sadly didn't feel any resonance with any of it. Either my mother is way down at the bottom of the spectrum of NPD, or she just doesn't care.

After all the effort I went to with the email calmly stating my place, and then replying to her exercise in minimisation, denial and blame. I then got a card in the post, where she totally manufactured a reason why some other poor bugger was to blame for my anger.

So I had to email THAT person to let them know that there was this pile o shite being hawked about. Lucky that person knows full well what is what so won't listen to anything she says.. but still.

Now I have texts saying Disappointed when I told her that I couldn't meet her on the same day she texted. Ok I didn't want to, but bearing in mind only a week or so earlier I had ASKED for space to recover from what she has done, I think it's not a point worth pushing.

But then again, I CARE about the feelings of others....

Got another phone message today, where she referred to her disappointment again.

AIBU to NOT ever reply to a single message that has been used to make me feel like crap. If she wants me to respond, she has to be normal and pack it in with the guilt trips.

of course responding might be a tad difficult when I've binned all contact details for her

Disappointed.

Interesting word choice that.

Not sad. Sad at not being able to meet. Not a case of 'Oh what a shame you can't meet me'

No.

Disappointed.

Implying that I have WRONGED her.

fuck the fuck off and when you get there, strap a rocket on, fire it up and fuck the fuck off into fucking ORBIT.

Disappointed? I'll give you fucking disappointed.

Disappointed that I was ignored for WEEKS when i was suffering in purgatory.

Disappointed when I was told not to come home for my 40th, and have my sister tell me that she was there. I got abused, badly on my 40th by the twat I was trapped with.

Disappointed that at every opportunity it was rammed home to me to make the relationship work. That he loves me, that I just need to spend time with the bastard that hit me, kicked me, kept me trapped in a flat for months Ex.

That when he left HE was the one that got the Good Luck phonecalls.

that my sister was enabled to twist the knife in a gut wrenchingly cruel way without so much as a raised eyebrow, and is FINE to this very day. I'm utterly unreasonable, bordering on unhinged, to NOT be in contact with her.

Disappointed that my son was also made to suffer for her gratification.

Disappointed that at any possible mention of DV, regardless of the speeches and talks I have given, the charity that I have set up, that the subject is changed to someone else she knew that had DV. Not me. Never me.

Disappointed that I was excluded from DM house move, to the extent it took almost 3 weeks until I knew where she actually moved to.

disappointed that she tells the WORLD about how terrible my life was, and how much she worries/d about me. Given all the above. yeah.

but SHE Disappointed that I can't don't want to meet up after work? That I don't want to see her just yet? Nah... not even a valiant effort.

Sorry, Hissy I meant for Struggling to read DONM. I'm OK atm, glad every day I got out and saved my marriage and my sanity.

I'm sorry you are having a hard time. "Disappointment" is what DM called me when I told her not to bitch to me about DH. .

I think, Hissy my love you have to find a way to never ever have any contact with your mother again. Every time she just uses it to stick the knife in and twist it.

My DM, the housebound invalid, is apparently planning a shopping trip to Dublin involving a 3 hr train ride, then 3 hour flight each way .

G2B, oh yes, struggling absolutely had to see that site, and I think you too got lots of help from it, but somehow I wish there was a name I could call her and have it explained.

I don't even have that!

I think this is going to have to go the whole way, i'm trying really hard for that NOT ot happen. I'm showing them all what my boundaries are, so they don't shoot em all to bits..but they do anyway.

I need to find a way to give it all up.

Let it all go and live alone the way I want to.

Shall I just not answer the phone anymore?

Is it that simple?

I wish there was a name I could call her and have it explained
Spiteful old bitch?

I think maybe you need to just never respond again. Change your phone number, whatever is necessary, as if you were escaping a stalker or something. Cut loose and bask in the peace of not being needled by her.

Easier said than done, perhaps.

Ha ha! :)

Oh .... Called In today with the kids... Big roast on the side, easy feed me and the kids... No invite. Feel gutted. She did take the opportunity total the eldest his top was too small....no it's not he said- it's padded under armour it's meant to be skintight ...Good on you son.
I saw more of her when I was married... But now she's wrecked that she's not interested. Honestly...I'm on my own all weekend ....not a call, offer of dinner, or take her grand kids out.... Grrrr

Well then struggling, you know what to do now eh?

LIFE WELL, suit yourself, make your life happy and sod her!

I stopped sharing my birthday/christmas with them after the ex left and they all left me for dead too.m.

'if you're not there for me in the bad times, then you don't get invited to the good times'

Gah!
Not been here for ages, I left and came back!
Just dealing with my mother. Hopefully it's now sorted. I had to have very strong words today. She sent dd1 (one of twins) a birthday card, not dd2, playing the same games she did with dsis and me! Birthday card had a tenner enclosed, and basically said here's some money, email behind Mum's back! Nasty! 'Phoned her and told her not to contact ever, ever again. Dd1 backed me up, she's 17 so fully understands. Still shaky though. Hate having to call her, and she likes making me do it. She asked why I didn't want contact, I told her I wouldn't discuss it but that at 54 I'd had enough and wished her Good Afternoon. She knows damn well, but would like me to say it so that she can tell all and sundry how dreadful I am. She will be furious now and will be frantically working out if she can get another of my siblings to stop speaking to me. She will be more furious that I didn't get upset and didn't play the game, than she will about her grandchildren not wanting to know her.

dawn that's unbelievable!

Wonder how much it'd cost to take out a full page O-Bitch-ery in dawn's mums local news paper...

Blimey dawn your mother sounds like the puppet from SAW, (you wanna play a game). She would be an ideal actress if there were to be a new movie

I've never seen SAW, I shall ask dh later!
It's going to take a couple of days to recover, but one brother and dsis have both been on the 'phone this evening in full support of me. I think they were both stunned that she's trying to carry it on through the grandchildren. One brother is her puppet, so doesn't speak anyway.

Hissy

Hi, everyone. I've just been directed over from the other thread, I wondered why it had gone quiet (duh :) )

I'm having a very low day as parents left this morning, which is why I'm posting.

I feel despondent because I tried to manage this visit so carefully but it hasn't made a great deal of difference.

Again, I'm amazed at the huge negative, physical effect she has on me, without really doing anything specific. I've barely been able to function today. I'm a shit parent when she's around, a part of me switches off and I find it incredibly difficult to pull myself back until she's gone and my head's cleared. I hate her for this and it's the main element in me wanting to reduce contact.

The things I can put my finger on this time:

1. The uncanny way she has of responding which, in just a mm hmm, can make you feel entirely dismissed.

1. The way she can't let you finish a conversation, instead there'll be a point, usually just a sentence or so in, when she cuts you off to 'agree' with you (usually she has no actual idea of the point you were heading for, as you've barely begun). She will then relate her own vaguely linked experience without stopping for breath for the next 30 minutes until you forget what you were going to say anyway.

1. The child-like voice and singing. Her singing makes me feel sick.

1. The constant need to be the centre of attention. She answers over me when my husband and children talk to me. She cannot bear it when both my children have come to me.

1. The way she asks repeatedly whether she can do anything to help, without ever actually helping. If I give her something to do, it becomes a big drama, no matter how simple. She can sit surrounded by toys, with the toy box right there, and ask if there's anything she can do, without making any move to just stick some toys in the box, while I'm rushing around like a mad woman. But of course, she's always offering, so it's presumably my fault that she just sits there like a princess.

1. She talks crap. Translated as, she lies. And gets really pissy if you pick her up on it.

1. She doesn't like me. I don't fit the mould for the daughter she imagined. It feels as if we're opposing magnets, with that constant feeling of pushing each other away no matter how close we try to get.

Uuuuuuuuuuurgh

Name my MIL tried the baby voice when 1st GC arrived, but DSIL, FIL and DW sat on her firmly.

Poor MIL: she was rejected by her mother for not being a boy, and if it wasn't for FIL would be a complete fucking loon.

Hissy: that word "disappointment". That brings back memories. One of my brothers used it and the surounding rant in standup; the routine used to bring the house down.