"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's August 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield: 

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

She spent years poisoning DS's mind, making excuses for his bad behaviour, jumping in whenever I attempted to discipline him by rocking up and whisking him back to her house for a few days.
She is unhealthily attached to him.

DS threw me out of her house a few weeks ago, and I reported to police.
Police arrested DS. Mother made a statement and basically lied to police to get DS out of trouble again.

DS has lived with mother before, but has never completely cut me off before. It didn't work before between them because DS discovered that mother hacked his facebook, msn, read his bank statements, rang and messaged his friends to find out what he was doing.
If mother does not know what you are doing, she makes up the most negative story instead.

DS said the trust had completely broken down between them, and moved out. Mother was devastated. I mean, completely floored. Swore she'd never let a man hurt her like that again.

Now DS has moved back in with her, probably because she literally does everything for him, and there are no boundaries, and suddenly DS, for no reason he will disclose, has decided to cut me off. Mother wont hear a word said against DS. She complains that DS shows her no empathy, then in the next breath, says she expects nothing from DS.

I know it's a cliché, but if someone has no empathy, really doesn't care about another person, and is offered a life where they are treated like a king, they will take it wont they?

DS has lived in a few different places, and never have I seen his life decline at such a rapid rate as it does when he lives at my mothers, yet he cannot see the connection between living there and how his life unravels.

DS is HFA and needs support from someone who gives him clear firm boundaries. He gets no boundaries at mothers, so while on one level, he is happy to do as he pleases, on another level, he makes poor choices and gets into lots of trouble.

But so long as mother isn't lonely and is needed, that's all that seems to matter.

And I so badly need to get rid of this anger!! It is eating me alive. I just want to be happy.

Littlemiss, you have to feel that anger, process it and understand WHY you have it.

Understand that this is because it was all done TO you, and not by you.

The anger is normal, required even, you have to go through this, to get to the calmer other side.

I suppose it's normal to feel angry. It just doesn't appear to be going away. The more time that passes, the more things I remember, and feel angry about.

I am in my 40's, am single, have never had a decent relationship, and yes, rightly or wrongly, I blame my mother for that atm. Maybe it is just the anger talking.

All throughout my childhood, she sent conflicting messages, but mainly that men were to be served and women were to suffer. So long as a man brought home a wage, that was his duty done. Women OTOH were to dance around making his life as pleasant as it possibly could be.
My mother was a victim of DV twice, yet she had opportunity's to escape and never bothered, even when she knew he was beating the shit out of her DC. Her response: 'You shouldn't piss him off.'
She didn't give a shit how her DC suffered or the damage she did to us all, so long as she kept him by her side, because that's what she believed..that if a man pissed off, it was always the womans fault in some way. If the man wasn't happy, the woman had to resolve that. If the man didn't love you, the woman wasn't enough and it was her job to fix it.

When I think back, I was bullied at home (shouldn't piss people off), bullied at school (what are you doing to annoy the bullies then?), my boss at one job made advances to me (trust you LMS, it always happens to you doesn't it? You must be giving off a vibe.) so I have spent my whole life second guessing what other people are thinking/feeling and how I can control their actions by changing mine IYSWIM.

I am angry that she has put men before her DC our whole lives, and now she is worshipping DS as though he is a bloody god, when I have spent years trying to teach him that people are people regardless of their sex, even though my own radar is shit, and I struggle tremendously with boundaries. Instead, I prefer to withdraw from people, then I don't need to assert myself or worry that boundaries will be overstepped and I wont know if it is generally acceptable behaviour or not. By withdrawing myself from people, I have remained single and friendless which defeats the whole bloody object of wanting to be accepted. I am not accepted. I have no one except DD (who is amazing btw )
It hasn't helped that over the years, mother has told me that no one likes me, they just behave friendly because they are being polite, and between mother and my sister, they destroyed my relationship with DD's father. It's ok so long as they have someone, because me? I don't matter. I am not looking for sympathy, I am looking for answers so I can understand, but the truth is, in my life, I have attracted friends/men who also believe that I don't matter. It is hard to distinguish whether I do matter and they are wrong, or whether actually I don't.

Mother has always undermined my parenting, but since DS went to live with her for the first time, she has had a lot more influence over him. He is very easily led, and now he treats women with such disrespect, I feel like I have wasted so many years, all because mother can't control her desire to be needed ffs!!!

I have never felt like I am allowed to be happy about anything. I have an extremely low opinion of myself, and when anyone says anything nice...well, they just don't know me very well..when they get to know me a little better, they will realise what an energy vampire I am, a miserable opinionated boring failure I am.

I searched all my life for someone to accept me the way I am. No one did, until DS came along.

I always knew he would grow up and leave home. I hoped he would feel special, worthy of everything life has to offer.

Instead, mother has stolen him from me, and now his life is going down the toilet and all she cares about is that she is no1 in his life.

How is everyone?

I estranged myself from my parents a couple of weeks ago. It's my dad's birthday today.

How are you feeling Helles? Are you NC with your dad?

Pretty much nc. Just to do with ds and then minimal. I guess I had only thought of the relief of not having their negative influence on my life. I hadn't considered the times that the whole damily would be together without me.

Things seem to be going well here for now but i know a storm isn't far from the corner when mil realises there will be no letter that she is currently waiting for. But so far so good, dh has only had one text and one fb message of his sister asking for him to wish his mother happy birthday.
I bit my lip though as i'm used to her getting involved, i have come to realise over the years she is as bad as the rest of them. Always putting her foot in if mil is of the scene.

Hi Good, I'm in reflective mood at the mo contemplating our time staying with DM. Things I note

1. The argument where I "was being horrible to her" regarding drink driving was totally futile. On our last evening she again tried to drive out for our meal after drinking the best part of a bottle of wine over the afternoon.

1. DM would rather spend time alone in her room (with a glass in hand) than interacting with her DGC. This is the woman who thinks ill of me for not letting the DC stay with her by themselves.

1. DM asks nothing about me or my life, or about the children. I'm not thinking about deep stuff but just the general chit chat eg how's work, what've you been up to lately.... I volunteer nothing either.

1. When I do speak with others in the presence of DM, DM is quick to jump in and turn the conversation onto her. No DM, x was asking about what I do for a living, not how it compares to what you did over 20 years ago!!!!

1. It is very wearing to be constantly told what Dsis and family are up to or to be judged against them. Eg we would take DM out for a meal only to be told what was on the menu and who had what last time Dsis visited. Or we would be chatting away and then DM would go off at a tangent with a comment such as "wonder how Dsis is getting on with her dinner tonight".

1. DH is useless in this situation. When DM and I were arguing he actually hid. His only comment after was "I hope that that's all over now and you two are not stewing on it. If it kicks off again I'm going out."

Sorry that all sounds really bitter and self pitying doesn't it? Now I've written it all down I'll get a grip!

Hi
I don't know if my family was dysfunctional or just a bit weird. And now I seem to have ended up with dysfunctional ILs as well. Starting to think maybe it's me.

Meery

Its not bitter and pitying at all actually. Its very sad that toxic parents now toxic grandparents act that way at all. Its not your fault your mother is the way she is.

What about cutting off your narcissistic nasty drunk of a mother altogether?. Could you do this despite the FOG - fear, obligation, guilt?.

You get nothing positive out of this and nor do you children from seeing her.

Attila you may be right. As it is we are very low contact. Apart from our recent visit we have only seen DM once this year for one day early in summer. We will not meet up again until Xmas and that is actually in doubt as Dsis is away so DM unlikely to come over. I speak with her briefly on the phone about once a month. We do not skype, text or email. DM does not have any contact with the DC between visits.

I do feel the FOG, but it is not FOG for the DM/daughter relationship but more FOG over what damage I could be doing to my DC by taking their GM out of their lives. There is a back story to this. As a child I had virtually no contact with my paternal GM or aunt. I think their crime was being "common". DF was "allowed" to take Dsis and I to see them once a year for an hour or so at Xmas, DM never visited them. Dsis and I remember being thrilled with gifts received from our paternal relatives, but not being allowed to show our pleasure for fear of upsetting DM and her mother. We were also never to speak of the visits as this would lead to big strops on the maternal side. The damage was done, I never regained the relationship with my paternal GM I lost as a child.

So for that reason alone I feel I have to carry on a relationship, at least until the DC are old enough to decide for themselves.

Hi Meery,

I would urge you strongly to think further about your current position re the children and your mother.

You were cut off from your paternal GM and aunt by your mother out of sheer spite and nastiness on her part. Terrible of her also to call them "common" indeed, what an awful snob (as an aside my Dad's mother called my mother's parents this and she never forgave my Nan). Your mother did an awful lot of damage by doing that. Also such behaviour is typical of narcissists.

The situation however, with your children now is far different. I would argue that if your mother is too toxic or difficult for you to deal with, she is certainly too toxic for your children to have any sort of contact with. Your role here amongst many is to protect them from malign influences like your mother. She may well go onto give your children roles such as "golden child" or "scapegoat" or at the very least have a favourite whilst disregarding the other entirely. This could happen right under your very nose. Also she is coming across as a selfish drunkard and that is no role model for your children to witness either. When they are therefore of age to decide for themselves your relationship with your children may be damaged beyond repair because of your mother's influence over them. Also your mother could well turn against them or use them to get back at you.

It's painful to watch a narcissist "interact" with their grandchild.

Mostly because there's not much interaction.

And what little there is is so brief and shallow that it hardly rates as a true encounter. More like a hit and run.

Not only do you feel bad that your poor kid doesn't have a real grandparent and is missing out on such a special relationship, you can't help but be reminded that's exactly what you had to deal with for most of your life.

It's like getting to watch reruns of a TV show you always hated.

A percentage of the general population is dysfunctional and/or abusive. That percentage, like everyone else, has children. Then those children grow and have children of their own. The not-so-loving grandparents expect to have a relationship with their grandchildren. The only problem is, they?re not good grandparents.

Many adult children of toxic parents feel torn between their parents? (and society?s) expectation that grandparents will have access to their grandkids, and their own unfortunate firsthand knowledge that their parents are emotionally/physically/sexually abusive, or just plain too difficult to have any kind of healthy relationship with.

The children?s parents may allow the grandparents to begin a relationship with their children, hoping that things will be different this time, that their parents have really changed, and that their children will be emotionally and physically safer than they themselves were.

Unfortunately, this is rarely the case, because most abusive people have mental disorders of one kind or another, and many of these disorders are lifelong and not highly treatable. (Others are lifelong and treatable; however, many people never seek the necessary help.)

The well-intentioned parent ends up feeling mortified for having done more harm than good by hoping things would somehow be different ? instead of having a child who simply never knew their grandparents and who was never mistreated, they have an abused child who is now also being torn apart by the grief involved in having to sever a lifelong relationship with the unhealthy people they are very attached to.

If your parents were not good parents and you are considering whether or not to allow a relationship with your children, consider the following factors, as well as others, before deciding:
?Have they fully addressed their issues in SKILLED long-term therapy? (A few weeks or months is nowhere near adequate if your parents regularly mistreated you).
.
?Have they been treated for all the root causes of their dysfunction or abuse?
.
?Have they sincerely apologized and made amends for the hurtful things they did? Not just said, ?I?m sorry?, but really talked it all through with you over many hours? time?
.
?Are they very different people to you from the ones you remember?
.
?Do you currently have a healthy, functional and stable relationship with them?
.
?Do they respect your choices and boundaries as a parent? Do they follow your requests about how you want your children to be treated and to behave?
.
?Would you recommend your parents to your best friend as babysitters without any hesitation or worry, and feel comfortable giving your word that they?d never harm your friend?s child, without any doubt?
.
?Have you worked through all of your feelings about the mistreatment you experienced through your parents?

.
These are just a few of the important questions to answer. The best plan is to work through the matter with a therapist of your own, who has no bias toward trying to ?keep families together? despite the presence of mistreatment.

More Here: lightshouse.org/lights-blog/toxic-bad-abusive-grandparents#ixzz2dwfwPFqy

Thank you for the last two posts. This is something I'vebeen struggling with. You are so right .

Wellieboots dh and I are lucky enough to both have narccisstic mothers . I think that was something we recognized in each other without even knowing .

LMS how are you feeling today?

Brilliant post atilla really sums up everything, will copy and paste for dh when he is ready.
I'm glad things are quiet here as going through alot with my dcs behaviour at the moment, think the summer holidays have gone on long enough

Very insightful post Attila.

Hope everyone is having a good day.

I am feeling a lot calmer atm.

Got a text from my sister to wish DD a good day on her first day back at school. I was disappointed tbh, and I feel selfish for saying so, but it's just easier for me if neither my mother or sister bothers, even if that angers me somewhat.

I replied 'Thanks'.

I know it wasn't sister I fell out with, but now I don't know what to do. Any advice?