"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's August 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield: 

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

Ii've posted on here several times before and found it really helpful, so I'm back! Went NC with Mum in May. Think she was glad tbh and she dropped me like a sack of potatoes, after giving her thoughts on how she had suffered, my awful treatment of her etc.
Since then i have been much happier, but still have times when i feel sad or upset. But mostly it was a good decision and i have no intention of going back to how things were. However, i was wondering does the guilt ever stop? What tips would you recommend? I don't rationally think i have reason to feel guilty and i know she feels no guilt, but i can't help still feeling bad sometimes eg i will no longer send cards etc, but i felt mean by ignoring her birthday, and today i got a christmas card from her, which i have no intention of replying to, but again, i feel the guilt.

Hi MMM,

I remember you from previous writings, you're doing really well!.

Bin her card and concentrate your efforts on your own family unit.

Guilt is a truly useless emotion honestly. You think she feels at all guilty, not a bit of it.

Do read the piece below I have posted on hoovering; this may well help you as well.

You have and do feel guilt because you are at heart a reasonable and well balanced person. Your mother is not like you though.

The "normal" rules of familial interaction with family members goes out the window though when it comes to dealing with toxic family members.

Do they not feel the guilt we do then? or do they ignore and suppress it?

I wonder if my mother's choice to exclude me from her move is from guilt at what she sees is a terrible thing (selling the childhood home)

I did hear that apparently it was a hugely emotional time, but as I wasn't actually involved, can't be overly sure..

may be wrong here but I think it varies. I think some of them feel guilt (depending on just how much they think everyone should exist for their purposes) but actually bury it so deeply that they never notice it. Or actually can't bear the guilt and therefore get into the years-long habit of turning it back on the other person that they, themselves, have treated very badly.

Some people don't feel guilt though. They really do seem impervious. Like something is misisng in them. They genuinely, absolutely genuinely, cannot see why they can't act as they please. The closest they come is a sort of baffled bewilderment that everyone is so upset that they said things like 'I wish you were dead' to their young kid, or threatened someone with a knife. That realisation that other people disapprove is why they tend to keep the awful behavoiur behind doors. But they actually, really don't see what's wrong with it. Only that other people around disapprove.

Been so ill with D & V bug this week and on top of this, as you know i had mil fb msg me. Least to say the whole clan is now deleted.

Anyhow mil will not stop texting dh and it is becoming a daily problem, a problem which is bringing the fog bag in large quantities again
She text him today with the usual "how long will you make us suffer, tell me what i did...."- + "pumpkin has deleted us off fb and not answered my message". You get the jist.!!!All this whilst i was doing the school run hence i come home to a snappy cyclopse, not the dh i waved by too.

She also text him yesterday to harp on about how he forgot nieces bday!

She is getting the grip again and i have had a fucking nough of it.
He hasn't answered these texts to my knowledge but it's still fucking with his head and i get it taken out on me and my eldest dd gets a lot of crap from him too.

Told him to go for a walk as politely as i could to clear his head and he finally went a few minutes ago, after the excuses of "i have done nothing" without even saying bye.
I didn't want an argument so i thought best to have gotten him to leave for a short while as it sometimes helps.

I just don't see why me and the dc should put up with the aftermath. If he would simply change his phone number it would change things so much.

This post is very much me, me. Sorry for this will read through tonight when he has gone to work as i see this thead has filled up alot today.

Fucking Christmas! These peeps cannot let any of us be happy can they!

Accept that this is always going to be a pressure point.

understand that him changing his number is a TERMINAL thing. He's scared shitless of the idea of that.

perhaps he needs a NEW number so that he can leave that old one at home, and switch it off if he wants to.

Go back a step to see if you can move foward

by Accept that this is always going to be a pressure point I meant Christmas.

"perhaps he needs a NEW number so that he can leave that old one at home, and switch it off if he wants to."

That's a good idea.

What about silent ringtones assigned to her calls and messages? That way, he can see them when he's ready and not at her demand so he's caught off guard.

Aaaaaaaaarggggghhh!

Whose fecking idea was it to have a dearly loved and awesome little child at christmas?

It gives double the flaming hit!

Got home today to a fecking card from sisdear.

'thinking of you, all our love' bitch and biches H and the dc."

I shouldn't have bloody opened it, should i?

This is the one that took enormous delight and pride in hauling me hundreds of fecking miles to tell me that she'd deliberately ignored my texts for virtual company while in the most hideous depths of an abusive relationship (that they all knew of) I could have died in blissful ignorance of her deliberately leaving me yo rot, but no. That wasn't enough, she had to see my face contort in disbelief and confusion for herself.

Ripped up and in bin.
I so want to send a message for her to never, ever, ever contact me or my son again.

I sent her fecking gifts back last year, that's enough of a clue surely!

I hate this, truly fucking hate this. Wtf did I do to these godawful people?

Get your H a new phone for christmas. With a new number, so he can take time off from his family's texts.

He doesn't have to cancel the number, not just yet, but he needs to be able to control his environment.

TalkTalk do lovely phones for a tenna a month!

tell me she didnt actually write "bitch and bitch's husband and DC".....

no. I admit to creative licence.

I'm in a creative industry dontya know... :)

card is to DS, envelope heavily decorated to add attraction. Why am I thinking of Hansel & Gretel???

Proper names were used.

He didn't see it. Knows nothing of it.

oh phew, glad I misunderstood ...

what is it that's stopping you asking her not to contact you and your son again? if it's what you feel is the right thing? the difficulty in taking that final step?

I have not had any contact for almost 18m.

i have been very clear with my DM as to why, its not a surprise or a secret. She has not attempted to contact me in any way shape or form since a year ago last July. The message then was merely a box ticking exercise, it was a fake voicemail. Consisted of 3 words and a HUGE pause. Hello............................. call me back,

i swear to god that was it. She HATES me for some unknown reason, and when she told me about the ignoring of texts I eventually saw it. Every single interaction after that was all so that she could say that she had done xyz and Hissy the WonderScapedog has ignored it.

Up until that point I thought she loved me like I loved her. And I did. more than anything.

I don't know where she lives, she's moved.

I have been NC all this time, If I contact to tell her to FTFO, she will know she has hit her target. I HAVE to remain NC. Tis the NC rules!

That message of stay the fuck away has been given, in spades. I have refused to go to things that she was at, and she's tried to milk it. Anything I've said I'd go to, she would not go to, for fear of what would be said. she fucking knows I want nothing more to do with her.

The gifts got posted back to her last year, so this year she sends a card, with no forwarding address, in an envelope designed to be seen by DS.

If she wanted to build bridges, she would have written to me, contacted me, she doesn't, she hasn't.

I am venting, I can do no more.

I feel very sad. It's okay thinking you can make a stand and enough is enough etc but I just feel so drained and empty. Then I talk to my husband a lot about things and perhaps inappropriate timing as he was going out but just feel I need to talk about it. And I seem to quite a lot like every day. He's gone out now and said some nasty things, as I just feel he doesn't get my pain and doesn't seem that caring.
I am now all alone and feel so alone . I feel very upset.im even thinking maybe I'll be better on my own. Away from them and my husband. This happy life is never going to happen is it? I feel if I was on my own I couldn't cope without my husband that will be the last straw. And I just think he's not being understanding? Does anybody's else have this problem. I feel like running away!

It's such a mind bender because whats happened with parents and all the criticism and guilt they have put on to me over the years, I feel I don't know my own mind like what's normal flaws in a marriage and what should anyone put up with and what shouldn't they? Because I feel I've been so conditioned into putting up with all sorts now I'm questioning my whole life. We all have flaws. I'm thinking about everyone around me now. Such as do they respect me, don't they . How much have I put up with say from friends, husband etc it's hard to know what's okay and acceptable and what is not okay for me to put up with? Am I making any sense?

Should I have opened up this can of worms ? Crux of it is I'm scared and worried whilst trying to stay strong.

ATILLA that was so interesting about the "hovering". My mum sent me a text today "just let me know you are as well as you can be. I am worried about you. Love you xx"
....as well as I can be means that I am obviously "not well" as I could not come to this decision otherwise . I will ignore it, as I will any cards, gifts over xmas...just one thing I need advice on,
what do I say if she calls?
iIdo not want to be scare of the phone!

Thanks for your reply, Atilla. I am going to read the rest of this post in a minute, but i did read your post on hoovering. Very interesting. When she sent us an anniversary card in August, i was really upset and felt it spoilt the day. This time i knew she would send a card cos that's what 'people' would expect and both her and my dad have always been almost obsessed with what the neighbours might say and doing the 'right' thing... Weird really cos i don't think abusing/ neglecting the needs of your own children is exactly the 'right' thing, but that doesn't count as long as nobody else knows.

Anyway, i did bin the card today, but i opened it first. Felt almost compelled to, just incase she had written anything else, or my dad had a change of heart and was trying to reach out to me... Nothing, however, with mum EVERY TINY little detail has meaning, and she had abondoned the usual 'love from' and had replaced it with just 'from'. I guess that was supposed to upset me, but it didn't, she removed her love years ago.

Just wanted to post my first thoughts, and i'm going to to read the rest of this post now. I sometimes feel guilty and a bit precious for dipping in and out of stately homes, i hope you all don't mind me using it as needed. I do follow other people's posts regularly but i don't always feel i have anything to contribute. It does help me to know there is somewhere to share my thoughts when i need to - helps me process them more clearly

Change your number Bedtime. Just do it.
Could it be that he's frustrated seeing you suffer like this?

Get a new SIM and live in peace, see how you feel for a week or so without them contacting you?

I have Father Christmas ringing on DS birthday, then the phone will be OFF.

I will change my number in January.

I may send a letter to my mum's address to tell her and her DD to never contact me again, or my DS. But I dunno...

Hissy - thank you. Yes I think that's what it is and the time wasted on talking about it. Because I think he feels she's already caused so much trouble over years and time so why give her anymore time. He wants me to think about my life and getting on with me, he says it's about now but then I feel I need to speak about it but he doesn't want to give her that satisfaction of taking anymore of our time and our life etc upsetting us etc. so really it's hard. Because I feel I need to talk about it but I get why he feels she's taking more of our time, then I think hes frustrated that he can't help my pain and that it sometimes feels like we are getting no where.

Really change my phone? I don't know why but I'm worried about doing this. I do feel lonely .

I must be really bad to be around. I suppose I don't really talk about much as this topic seems to be at the forefront. All I can think is that's because it's so raw and family mum dad etc doesn't feel like normal without having them in your life. And it's so painful

Bedtime - sorry things are difficult between you and your husband. I think unfortunately that these things are impossible for people from 'normal' families to grasp as it all sounds so far-fetched and crazy. It must also be very frustrating for our families as they struggle to understand whats going on, and they are also often on the receiving end of us while we vent our pain, anger and self-doubts.

I can relate in part to what you say about questioning everyone around you. When i went NC with mum in May, dad chose to stop contact with me cos it would be 'awkward' for him. I was heartbroken, as although tricky i truly thought that dad would keep contact. I had always been a daddy's girl and thought the love i felt was a two-way thing. Looking back i realised i saw things through rose tinted glasses. But confidence in others and my own judgement was badly affected - i mean, i thought dad really valued me, but he was willing to lose me in order to make his life 'easier'. How did i know what other people really felt about me? Maybe other people didn't really care/ were using me/ laughing behind my back. How could i ever trust anyone again?

I don't know what was my turning point but now i no longer feel that insecurity, so I am sure that this will get easier for you too. Perhaps it comes from not having our feelings recognised and the constant denial of our version of events that happens when you are involved with a narc. We never learn to trust our own feelings. I think for me, the one thing that drove me to despair was the constant denials of things that happened, either i was wrong/ lying/ confused/ or mum didn't remember said event.

In recent years, dad joined in with the 'can't remember's. The latest is that he told my sister that mum was always a good, loving mum and she has done nothing wrong! How can they re-write history in that way? I'm the oldest of three siblings, and between the large age gap and forgetful parents, there is nobody that shares memories of my childhood - good or bad - it's like i never existed! Makes me feel very alone actually

Do you think hissy if you send that letter to your mum about no contact again you would feel like a release. With me it does at the time then I go into a bit of a depression and feel hurt, head all over place etc. do you not get like that or do you just feel okay ?

What you have with your parents isn't normal . Although as my 9 year old ds said , everyone's normal is different . Try to create your future not recreate a past involving them.

Hm, I see what you mean Hissy ... envelope to attract attentoin, if you tell her to FTFO she'll know she's hit the target :/ yeah. better just to bin the stuff.

bedtime a lot of the pain comes from knowing that you are not loved by your family. That's why we keep hanging on and putting up with terrible treatment, because anything is better than nothing. But it isn't really, not really. But yes .. that emptiness has to be faced without them. The emptiness inside and out.

But honestly, you can build good and healthy sane friendships and family without them.

I hope your husband chills out and can be there for you. This is a time he really needs to be.