"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's August 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield: 

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

Easy when you're advising others, isn't it? :)

Sorry Hissy.

I can't think of a reason for you to either keep the gift or letting her phone ds.

Who the fuck calls for 3 hours anyway? My mate can talk the hind legs off a donkey but even she will sstuggle with that.

No I can't Hissy. Send it all back.

No I can't Hissy. Send it all back.

No, the call wasn't 3hrs.

3hrs was the amount of time she made him wear the clothes thatwere too tight.

3 times he asked to change back as it wasn't comfortable. And each time she told him it'd hurt her feelings if he did.

I fecking ebayed the lot of them, at a loss too.

Oh - Sorry.

Hissy, reading that back don't you see that that is abuse? Why would you let someone who did that to your son talk to him?

If I send the box back to amazon, they don't get told it's returned, the store credit goes to my account.

Oh I saw it at the time, he never again stayed overnight or was unsupervised iirc from that point on.

Send it back to her then.

I wouldn't want the credit in my account.

That's why I hesitate to think that this was just between her and me. It's not.

I still struggle to believe it, it makes me feel sick.

I apologised to ds, I told him that it wasn't right and he knew I sold the clothes.

I never challenged her on it. There'd be no point, but I find me 'knowing' and her not knowing I know more powerful than the pointless exercise of confronting toxic jelly.

My dad doesn't love me. I haven't seen him for about 5 years. He has never met my children. I can't understand why you wouldn't love your children... I love mine more than life itself...

You can't understand because you aren't damaged like them.

When I see all my mother's done it makes me hold my ds tighter. I love him more and more every day.

I can't comprehend the situation at all.

I struggle with the embarrassment of it though. I'm so ashamed of how my family is.

Hissy, even if you had a toll number and charged £3/min. on each call, it would still be a bad idea. Protect your little boy. Protect yourself.

Thanks all for your messages. Gosh so hard. I'm trying to stand by my choices but feel scared.

Drugsdontwork- yes I remember you. We had quite similar sounding parents As I guess these types all handle it differently but same result of fear and guilt. How had it been with your parents?

Hissy - thank you so much. Your right and it hurts to know that my parents only really think about themselves.

Spanky - thanks that really gives me hope that I can do this without caving in as gifts feel like the bee all and end all to her.

Atilla - I just hope that I will feel better , I'm expecting wobbles I just hope i will eventually feel happy.

Hissy I've read your post about the parcel. I Get what you mean about finding it easier to advise others going through same then when it comes to ourselves its so hard.

I don't think you should let her talk to him. Making your son feel guilty and having to wear the clothes is not on.

I'm not sure about keeping the gift. It depends how you feel. You could keep it as you deserve it after what she's been like but then on the other hand would it make you feel like there is a tie there to you? It's how you feel as we all cope differently but If you do keep it that's the least you deserve after what you've put up with.

Previous to be earlier message my mum has sent lots of texts to my old sister tonight. She wants to see her grankids and is demanding that she sees them. She's blaming my sister for treating her badly but then saying my sister should encourage a relationship with them. My sister lives away so I don't see her much. We aren't particularly close but have this in common with my mum and feel similar. She is in counselling at the moment. I need to go really. My mums saying to her she needs counselling too after all my sister put her through then says but unfortunately she can't afford to pay for it like her. So she's doing the blame game.
My mums saying things to her about Xmas presents that if she isn't going to buy her and her boyfriend Xmas presents then they should just keep it to the kids, so in other words she won't buy her any. I thnk it's totally selfish.
Mums demanding that she sees the kids for a full day when she comes back for a few days in dec and that her bf does too then she's very manipulative by just adding at the end of a message and we'd like to see you too. Making her feel like an after thought etc, she's very good at saying things to wind people up or rub things in basically just annoying and causing bother. Being nasty sometimes too. The reason I know all this is that my sister sent me the texts.

So she's gone from this with me today to now getting on to my sister. It's always what "she would like" not what anyone else would like.she bossing and you feel like she's trying to run your life and tell you or if she can't tell you then force you usually by guilt trips.

Oh and she's used same trick bringing younger sister into it like she said to me earlier about how my younger sister has been crying her eyes out over what I do. What that then that I do? Won't put up with her bullying me. She's a form for lying so she's probably making it up about sister crying or shes manipulated/ lied to sister so then that upsets her.
She taps into heart strings over younger sister to try and make us feel bad and back down so we let her carry on the way she's being.

Can someone explain again what do people like my mum really want? If you did everything they wanted would they then be happy?

In answer to your question bedtime: control.

If you did do everything they wanted, would they be happy?
You know the answer to that already. No. Goalposts get shifted. Antes get upped.

I had the 'afterthought' thing too! [bingo!] after the move, DS got a letter addressed to him, inviting him down, blah, blah blah, and how much she loves him. Then, right at the end.. "Love to Mummy too"

I was livid. I asked ds how he felt about the letter, and he said it felt 'odd' and it was, it was totally out of character. I told him to listen to his feelings and that he was right.

Hi Hissy,

I would charity shop this so called gift which is also unwanted (these are never ever sent without conditions attached) and not give it any further thought. Certainly do not acknowledge it or send it back as such people just want to further hoover you back in. I certainly do not want to see you get sucked back into all their dramas. Complete radio silence must be maintained.

I have a not too dissimilar problem with regards to my narc MIL because she wants to buy me a gift of my own choosing (DH sends her the amazon link; despite my entreaties to him that she does not have to (well actually wants) send me a gift (its certainly not being sent out of any altruistic need on her part because she simply has no empathy or even realises how other people actually feel) DH still insists that she, "wants to get me a present". I was somewhat annoyed with him last night but clarity has descended and I feel much better. I have now decided that it will go to the charity shop when I have one of my clear outs because it is really unwanted.

On another thread I have posted a very good article from Lightshouse about "hovering". If anyone would like me to post it here I will gladly do so.

Bedtime; as Hissy rightly stated this is about power and control. They want to hoover you further back in. They are never ever happy regardless.

I understand.

Is the fact that I haven't spoken to her since August enough for her to see that gifts to my son, her GS are unwanted.

Somehow the just having it delivered to me, no wrapping, no nothing else doesn't sit well with me.

The account is in her H's name, and he's been proper vile for a long time, slinging a gift, without bothering to make any effort, but sending it as it is anyway so you can tell people you've bought ds a meccano set is so up his street it's not true.

Wouldn't you tick the gift wrapping option if you knew you were pushed for time to get it there?

Are my instincts going haywire, or are they right?

Oh well. 3 more weeks and it'll all be over. :)

Hissy, just sent it back and it will be over with now.

As for the refund/credit - give it to charity, send it back to them, kepp it it doesn't matter. Just send the gift back, it's causing you more hasstle than anything else at the moment. Don't try to analyse it, just send it back. Today.

As someone said, gifts are never without conditions. Never.

Attila I'd like to read it. x

Some toxic people will let you leave a relationship without caring one bit. They never really cared about you, and if you don’t want to be used and abused anymore, they’re simply on to the next person before you can say, “Bye!”

Others, however…

Others hoover.

The toxic hooverer doesn’t truly care about you either — they just want to keep you around to feed on emotionally, and when you decide to go no contact, they don’t plan on letting you get away that easily.

Many hooverers have traits of borderline, narcissistic, antisocial or histrionic personality disorders. People with Dependent Personality Disorder may also hoover.

Hoovering is manipulation to gain control over your choice to distance yourself, and typically takes the following forms:

•Ignoring your requests to break off the relationship and attempting to continue on as if nothing has changed.
.
•Asking you when you’re going to “get over it” and return to your past actions.
.
•Sending you a fake apology to give you hope that things have changed.
.
•Trying to trick you into contact by saying someone needs you, is sick, or in trouble.
.
•Triangulating with others, communicating things to you through them.
.
•Saying they’re worried about you, concerned about whether you’re okay, need to know where you are, etc.
.
•Sending unwanted cards, messages and gifts, sometimes gifts for your children, as they know you are likely to feel guilty about keeping a gift from your kids. Don’t allow this – exposing your children to manipulation is far worse!
.
•Returning old items you left behind.
.
•Baiting you with drama games.
.
•Contacting you about “important” things they “forgot” and suddenly have to tell you.

Don’t Fall for Hoovering Tactics

Attempts to pull you back into a toxic relationship are not valid expressions of caring and concern — they are attempts to regain control over your behavior. Beware — hoovering attempts are often disguised as caring, loneliness, hurt, desperation, fear, illness, and other things designed to play on your sympathies and pull you back. Abusers know that pulling on heartstrings works very well. (In the case of BPD, it may be simply out-of-control emotions and fear of abandonment more than an attempt to control you per se; however you will likely still feel that you are not being allowed to end a relationship you no longer want).

If your wish to end a relationship is not being honored, whatever a toxic person thinks will work best on you will be what they try, so when one angle doesn’t work, they will try another, and another, ramping up their efforts until it seems they might never stop. Typically, hoovering DOES stop if the person being hoovered does not fall for the hooverer’s tricks.

The sooner the person being hoovered completely ignores everything and does not respond to anything at all in any way, the sooner the toxic person finally understands that they do not have the control. Some toxic people may still make the occasional attempt on holidays, anniversaries of events, etc. Don’t bite the bait. Simply ignore any attempts.

If you have already made it clear that you do not want a relationship (or if it’s obvious) then DON’T ever contact the person doing the hoovering to tell them to stop again, or how angry you are. That is a reward. They will be thrilled to receive your attention and pleased to know that their efforts have paid off by snagging you, so they’ll be contacting you even more!

More Here: lightshouse.org/lights-blog/when-toxic-people-start-hoovering#ixzz2nBgsPQxT

Ignoring your requests to break off the relationship and attempting to continue on as if nothing has changed.

TICK – I have asked for space. She has called at least once a week, pretty much same time, same day, every week

Asking you when you’re going to “get over it” and return to your past actions.
TICK

Sending you a fake apology to give you hope that things have changed

TICK, I had the ‘talk’ with her, she promised to change/make amends going forward

Triangulating with others, communicating things to you through them.

TICK, I had a message from SisterDearest pleading for me to contract DM to wish her well with the move –that I had been utterly excluded from-- so I’m being discussed sister I have had no contact with (for bloody good reason) – what is the point of that. SisDear made out that I was likely to be hysterical too.

Her H also harangued my cousin at a deeply personal and emotional family event.

Trying to trick you into contact by saying someone needs you, is sick, or in trouble.

TICK, see above.

Saying they’re worried about you, concerned about whether you’re okay, need to know where you are, etc.

Hell no – I have never been on the receipt of concern. The subject is changed and every other bugger in the world has had what I have had and I’m not mentioned at all. “Are you OK?” and “How are you?” are phrases I have never had asked.

Sending unwanted cards, messages and gifts, sometimes gifts for your children, as they know you are likely to feel guilty about keeping a gift from your kids. Don’t allow this – exposing your children to manipulation is far worse!

TICK

Returning old items you left behind.

TICK In the run up to the move, I got a tatty old picture, that wasn’t even mine, a dented and bashed up pewter mug from my christening. That was so bashed up that it made me really sad, as it seemed so indicative of me. I told her not to bring tat into my home, and especially not tat that wasn’t even mine.

A plastic bag of tat, and stuff anyone would ordinarily throw out, plus my O level/CSE certificates, so I had to accept them cos they are important –apparently—

Baiting you with drama games.

NOT YET – but given every other category is ticked…

Contacting you about “important” things they “forgot” and suddenly have to tell you.

NOT YET – but ditto above

Bang on Atilla! :)