"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's August 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield: 

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

If she hasn't done anything then I would leave her but maybe message her to give her a heads up? Nothing too detailed - just something along the lines of. " I don't want you to get dragged into yet another family hooha so i'm letting you know I've deleted so and so for my own personal reasons. Please don't think that this changes anything between the two of us, it doesn't".

Chances are she wont get involved in it all anyway as she's too far away to care.

Guy, I can't really suggest anything you you know what to do for the best when it comes to your son. You know what they are like and can have a good idea of what they do at first and then afterwards when the excitment has all died down a little.

As for myself, well, I'm still going to take all of your advice and you are all right in everything you have said so far. Who'd have thought that such a small thing like sending cards can have such a big impact?

It's not really going to make any difference in my life not talking to my mother, after all, I've not spoken to her for nearly a year as it is. So, carry on regardless it is.

Any communiques though just open the sender up into the very distinct possibility of being further abused. Such toxic people regard communications as an "in" to further get back at their intended victim. They always want the last word.

As for Christmas cards Farrow, I would certainly second the counsel already given not to send any card.

I agree that FB is a huge tool for these types of people. I deleted my account a couple of years ago and instantly felt a lot better. It was like being set free and having my own personal space back.

On fb, I felt under pressure all the time and hated it in the end. I'm greatful of the fact that my mum never joined FB and although my brother had an account, we never once sent friend requests to each other.

Attila - advice taken, noted and acted upon. No cards will be sent.

I am still angry with my parents - I grew up in France and my parents were British, I only ever spoke French and had been once to England to see family when I was 3. Anyway when I just turned 8 we went on a trip to England to what I assumed was to see the family again. We drove up to a huge beautiful house and thought Grandma had got new house. We went inside and as I was talking to a lady in her broken French my parents said they were going to get something from the car and never came back. It was boarding school and they didnt know how to tell me I was staying. How they drove off without saying goodbeye and leaving me in a foreign country where I didnt speak the language I will never know. I have real issues with abandoment since and am sure it is linked to this. I still think - was I that bad of a child that they dumped me on complete strangers without saying goodbeye? To this day my mum says it was best as I needed to learn English [why they couldnt have taught it me I don't know!] My relationship with my parents isnt great and if I ever bring it up they just gloss over it and say I am overly sensitive. The worse bit was the fact this place was notorious for child abuse and got shut down when I was 16. I can never forget or forgive those who hurt me at that place and I can never forgive my parents for leaving me in the care of these evil people.

Bloody hell Well.

I'd question anyone who wasn't angry with their parents after that. What a shitty thing to do to a child and not teaching you english, the language of your own parents just brings up another load of questions that need answering.

You are not being oversensitve by bringing it up, not at all.

thanks FarrowandBawl - I have been going to therapy about this and my anxiety [I get very anxious in new situations or if I dont know anyone and get panic attacks] but until they turn around and say sorry or at least acknowldge what they did wasn't right I dont feel like I will ever get closure on that part of my life. I am recently married and are trying for our first baby together so just trying to focus on the positive and our happy future.

WellHello that is absolutely awful, how can they even call themselves parents xx

Wellhellothere,

These selfish people have utterly failed you as a person. Whose idea was it to have you boarded at such a young age, was one parent overtly dominant over the other?. Regardless of whose idea it was it was highly damaging to you all the same.

Their responses to your reasoned argument is typical of such toxic people.

They will never say sorry to you, these people never apologise nor accept any responsibility for their actions.

I would keep any children you do go onto have well away from your parents; some parents really should not have any access to their grandchildren.

My DS turns 8 this week. I'm at my desk in tears here at the thought of doing that to him. I adore every bit of him.

My mother moved last July and excluded me entirely from the details, it hurt like mad, but your story makes mine pale into insignificance.

That said, I couldn't do that to my boy either. I am so sorry that they did that to you. I wish that I could have taken your 8yo self in and looked after you instead.

You need to find a way to help that 8yo heal herself, and not think for a second that what they did was in any way acceptable.

I've gone NC with my parents, and it feels right (albeit hard to do) I think you ought not to rule it out either.

fGS never let them have access to your DC. Never leave them with them. They are not decent proper parents, they would never make decent proper GP.

WellHelloThere please be prepared for an emotional journey when you do become a parent.

When you feel the love for your little one, you will see what you were deprived of. That will hurt, but it's kind of inevitable.

You will be able to get through it, because you are strong and got through what your parents DID to you, you will survive the feelings surrounding that, because they are only feelings now. The deeds are done, the past is the past.

You will have to process your thoughts though. We are here for you, whenever you need us to be. OK?

(((HUG)))

thank you so much for the hugs Hissy and for the advice too - I am thinking of going NC with them but I feel responsible for them as I am their only child and worry about who will take care of them when they get older. I do worry about becoming like them when I am a mum but dont think its genetic to be a shit parent. I am really trying hard on forgiving their actions but not sure I am a big enough person to do that. Certainly not strong enough at the moment.

OK, I'm going to have a teeny tiny whinge. I know you'll all say I have to much contact with her, but atm it's the best I can do.
Saw DM on Friday morning and then went away for the wkend. Spoke to her today to pass on a msg from the builder and we had a chat. All fine. She's coming with me on Monday to get a present for DS and DD. So, she says plaintively "Will I see you on Sunday then" and it winds me up. I'm not sure why but it does. I will take the kids over on Sunday and I said so, but I hate the plaintive little voice.
Working hard to have a nice Christmas after she fucking ruined it last year and I'm just hoping it won't be too awkward on Xmas Day. At least friend is coming, will dilute things a bit.
I guess I'm annoyed that she still does the martyr thing.

Is there anyone else doing LC (low contact, or lower contact) or are you all NC?

I went very low contact with the extremely manipulative, verbally abusive and often violent close family member.

She had been violent towards me and then denied it all when I mentioned it and expected (ahahahaha) an apology from me. I, uh, refused and after a load of abuse ended up NC.

In the end I spoke with her husband to pick up my childhood thigns from her home (came there to find them all on the front lawn :s ) but she had calmed down by then. Neither of us apologised to the other but we had a cup of tea and she behaved ok. After that we had contact about every year. She always behaved with circumspection around me and I believe it's because she knew that I would walk away from her if it ever happened again. She certainly became worse towards everyone else, believe it or not. Had I been aroudn more, she would have been the same to me. The closer you got, the less she could help herself.

So yes, LC -can- be possible in -some- circumstances (I suspect not all) but the price is 1) carefully maintained distance and 2) giving up hope of a normal loving relationship. Slightly different thigns.

I am thinking of going NC with them but I feel responsible for them as I am their only child and worry about who will take care of them when they get older

Who was there to care for you as a young child? Who put YOU in an ABUSIVE home and didn't even tell you what was going on?

Seriously love, the day that you become a parent, you will see how wonderful love is for your little one and you will get very, very angry - with bloody good reason.

Social Services/NHS/WhoFuckingCares can look after your parents, that is their bed, they made it, they can sleep in it.

I am LIVID on your behalf (you can probably tell) because my DS is 8 and when my Mother ffed off in her house move, the thought of doing anything like that to my boy broke my heart in teeny pieces. It physically hurt to even allow the idea of doing that to him.

Out of interest, why is it that they didn't teach you English? it would be your 'Mother Tongue' Who raised you? did they palm you off on staff?

the fact that you were dumped by them, further abused, but not even heard then is disgusting. You have never been given any space to be heard, or to express yourself your entire life. :( They sound as if they have proper behavioural personality disorders and really are not capable of being parents to anyone at all. Do not ever, ever, ever allow them contact with any children you have.

please be prepared for the feelings you will have in the future. Never rule out cutting them off because I think you will have to when you truly allow yourself to feel what they did to you.

This has to be the very worst story I have heard on here. I'm horrified for you. I can't stop thinking about that little girl standing there confused and hurt and not even able to talk to anyone about it.

the fact that the school even allowed that shrieks volumes.

I got into a text argument with my mother . She does come out with some things. I've tried to explain that I am annoyed with her. And examples etc and she says weird things like it's blasphemous what I'm saying to her. She said she refutes anything I say and that it's me that's to blame and lists all the reasons why and says no ones perfect. ( well there's a difference between having flaws and a dictatorship ) I've told her I can't tolerate her bahviour anymore. If I was to tolerate it I would have to accept the things that she does now, the trouble she's always causing. The jealousy. Manipulating my sister if I get annoyed with the things she does. If I have the cheek to get annoyed at what she does she causes rifts with my sister. Who she uses as a tool to always get her way and be nasty.
She is competitive with me and others. I always feel like she doesn't really like me, that's how she leaves me feeling, that she's not bothered about me and doesn't want the best.

I'm also not wanting to give her christmas gifts and last night I unwrapped the ones I had for her and was upset and just thought I'm done, gifts will show its okay to treat me badly and carry on. What do you think? It's very hard.

Bedtime She has never given a crap about your feelings love, she has denied her maltreatment of you.

What makes you think anything will make her change now?

Look up Albert Einstein's quote on the definition of insanity :)

My mother would literally ignore me for 2-3 sometimes 3-4 weeks if I so much as mentioned that I wasn't having the best of days (in my deeply abusive relationship, in the shittiest country in the world)

I asked her not to do that once. She denied it to my face. first time I fell for it. Then on another occasion, I insisted that I was right, and after resistance, and the most weird 15 second stony silence in my life (which I refused to break) she acknowledged it and we agreed to move on.

then she moved.

Without telling me where.

for 2 weeks.

GAME OVER

My mother denies it all, it didn't happen, none of it. It's me that's the mad one...

give up, you can't play with crazy. remove your team, regroup and go and find another normal team to play with.

It is very hard love. but you are choosing yourself, and that is right. She will only hurt you, and you deserve better.

No contact, no presents, no more.

Not only this I know I'm not over past things probably because she's not been accountable and never said sorry and always turned it around. Therefore she refutes that and also says 98% of people know the truth about her and 2% aren't worth bothering with...so she's saying my truth isn't right . She also intends to carry on then with her behaviour if she refutes everything as she puts it.
She causes trouble whenever she can, she lies, manipulates situations and my sister, she doesn't get on with most of family and blames them. She tries to guilt trip me all the time. Makes me feel bad for having feelings. There's so much. Therefore I don't see how I can be around her really..

Bedtime1

What Hissy wrote.

Go NC with your mother and you will eventually feel a lot happier as a result. You will still have the occasional wobble due to FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) but you will not feel anywhere near as tormented as you likely feel now.

Goodtobetter

"I know you'll all say I have to much contact with her, but atm it's the best I can do"

You know me well because the first part of your sentence is exactly what I was going to write re your dysfunctional relationship with your mother!.

I think you will rue your questionable decision to give your mother another chance over Christmas given her awfulness last year towards you. Why give her another chance anyway, I think she trained you from birth onwards very well indeed:(. She will do the martyr thing still because she has what she wants from you - her narcissistic supply to keep her madness going.

My parents aren't getting gifts this year . They need to apologise first . They won't as they are not nice people . They have spent a lot of time trying to ruin my life . They don't love me either ! My mum is a narc not sure what my dad is but he is nasty . Don't worry about not giving gifts .

Just came home to a box from amazon. Addressed to ds.

It's not even ticked as a gift, nor gift wrapped. No message.

Shipping note has their address on it. Wonder if I ought to return it back to amazon,

Do I let her phone him on his birthday? Or no point. Will only encourage her.

If it weren't 6or the fact of last year forcing him to wear clothes too small they inflicted pain on him, i'd allow the call. But she did. For 3 hours. And emotionally manipulated him.

It has to be a no, doesn't it?

Is there seriously any reason why I should allow contact? Can I ask any of you/all of you to find some tiny reason that I should?

Would it benefit him? If I allowed her to wish him a happy birthday?