"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's August 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield: 

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

There is something I really want to get to grips with though, and is just popped into my head. It's my abandonment issues. It's really starting to eat me up inside. As I may not have said above, my mother, had lots of boyfriends between divorcing my father and my step-father.

Often when she got herself a new man, she would dump me on my grandparents, friends, even my fathers family members. But there are a number of occasions, where I would just be abandoned as she'd just pulled a new man. Once while sitting outside a café, she got chatted up by some fella and she just left me and went off with him - I had to find my own way home. I was about 7. Another time, we went to a bar for a Saturday bar lunch, she was picked up again. She gave me a pile of coins to play space invaders and off she went.

The scariest (or should be scariest) one that I ever went through was when we went to a beach on the south coast. There were some yachts, moored in the little bay and she met a guy who had one of them. So off she went. I stayed on the beach all day long, As the sun started to set, I sat at the waters edge with the basket we bought, just as the yacht weighed anchor and started motoring out of the bay.Then it stopped and a dingy was dropped and some man came and got me. Perhaps hindsight is doing me a disservice as I don't remember feeling scared only resigned.

Another time I can remember getting up in the morning to find she wasn't at home. I got dressed for school and she waltz in. For me this doesn't seem weird but she was only wearing her coat, she got dressed for work and off we went me to school her to work.

Its the abandonment that's really getting to me. DW does not seem to understand it at all, especially when I get grrrr, if ever we go out. She like talking to men and it riles me. Even on our wedding day she spent a load of time talking to some waiter, rather than It being our wedding day.

Last year she started having crafty lunches with another man. I found out about it, again she doesn't get what works me up. What DW didn't get is that the other fella was doing the "my wife doesn't understand me shit" - Yeh! mate your wife doesn't understand why your being a tool. His particular metier was that his child wasn't his even though she'd given birth a few weeks earlier.

Men do sadden me with their trite ways of trying to get laid. Until I got married I'd never had a relationship, I'm ashamed now of what I used to be like. I was telling DW a story from about 17 years ago (I was about 30). I was out surveying a house with a Trainee Chartered Surveyor and he was boring me with stories of his new girlfriend. He asked me if he should ask his new girlfriend how many men she'd slept with. I told him he was a fool to do so as the rule of thumb was double a woman's, and a man's is a third.

He got all shirt at that point cos it had transpired he had. And started ranting it wasn't fair she'd had ten men. I asked him what he was so upset about. And he said that you can't divide 1 by 3 to get a whole number. He then asked me how many I'd slept with, I said honestly I don't know and I'm not counting.

He then nagged me, and we sat down in the kitchen of this house he pulled out his yellow legal pad, and I ended up with two columns per page, double sided over several pages. Since then I've never wanted to know ever again, it too shame inducing. I had to leave the job shortly after cos he made my life misery from that point.

After that story, DW told me that on one of these stately homes treads some guy had gone through a similar issue, abused by his mother and abandoning relationships and sleeping around so as never to have that connection.

What the hell am I to do? I find now especially after last year, I'm getting worse. I feel that DW feels that she has a right to (as I see it) flirt with other men. I don't want to get angry, worked up yet this huge monstrous demon is gnawing away at my insides... like some William Blake inspired watercolour.

I have heard of selfish toxic mothers behaving similarly by putting their own needs before their child's but your mother in particular takes the cake. Your parents should never have got together in the first place but they did and the only good thing to have come out of their dysfunctional and toxic union was yourself.

Your DW is not your mother and she is not behaving in the same ways as your mother did.

It is NOT your fault your parents were so damaged and abusive themselves. You need proper help and support, the website below is for adults who were abused as children.

www.napac.org.uk I would urge you to contact them.

Thanks you I've started taking a look. I appreciate what you say and understand

Mirtz your story was very hard to read. You should never have had to endure such horrendous treatment. Have you ever had counselling?

I tried a bit of CBT last year, the guy was a young man in white snake skin cowboy boots - I found it a bit hard to take him too seriously, especially as he ended each session with Next time we'll talk about strategies... then I ran out of cash

Counsellors however, are like shoes in that you need to find someone who fits in with your approach. Not all of them are good by any means and you may need to see at least one before you find the right person for you.

Also BACP are good and do not necessarily cost the earth. NAPAC are certainly also worth talking to.

OK but what should I be asking to find the right fit I can be between a 10 to 12 depending on manufacturer, style the socks I'm wearing

I must admit I feel a bit selfish and self absorbed after going on about my abandonment issues... but its things like that that I want fixed. Especially as well it does make me sound like I have a chip on my shoulder, which isn't the case.

mirtz i'm so sorry you had to endure all that, and i'm so glad you've found your way here.

I'm not entirely sure if I have anything useful to say to help you atm, but i'll come back when I do.
(weekend away, lots of driving, brain dead)

Why do you feel selfish?

As its unfair on DW, she was never part of it and I get so angry with myself for the way i feel at times

Ah I see. But you are aware of where your problems come from and you're willing to address them which are both very positive things, no?

Mirtza but YANBU in being upset about your wife having 'crafty lunches' with a secret bloke FGS!

Why on earth would you think that's OK for her to do to you, regardless of you background.

Don't feel guilty for your 'W', far from it.

The FOG your awful childhood has created has made you doubt yourself to such an extent, you can't tell what's being done to you now and why you're disquietened about it.

Looking at your feelings, listening to yourself, soothing the hurt, and allowing yourself to feel all these things is essential, not selfish!

There's a whiff of your mother in DW. What you choose to do about that, work with it or not, IS very much your decision.

Sorry :(

Missing bit of my post: Many of us women are accused of marrying men like our fathers...

I don't really think DW is anything like my mother, yes I have major abandonment issues, which can make me rather needy. DW was just a bit dozy and should have made her intent clearer sooner rather than me finding out accidentally, later. I was/am pissed off by it. I would like to have the ability to take it in my stride by having the emotional self-worth. Screwing around never gave me the necessary self-worth, just the ability to silo my feelings.

Erm, love, Dozy?

She snuck around behind your back, having inappropriate contact with a guy, who was feeding her the oldest lines in the book.

You minimised your DM actions to survive them, you're choosing to do similar (albeit nowhere near the same scale) with your DW.

For someone with your background, more so than those without that dynamic, it's vITAL that trust, fidelity and honesty is paramount.

Anyone with you has to understand that.

You are not going to have the emotional self worth if you deny yourself the right to be angry at something you have every bloody right to be angry at.

You HAVE to be a little self-focussed to gain that vital self esteem.

Going through the crap spun by our families is in waves, we have to allow ourselves to see the wrongs, to feel the hurt, the anger, rage even, to understand we have a need and a right to feel it, to express it safely, and to realise that we deserved better.

When we work through that anger we can start to let got, and only then can we begin to learn to take it in our stride.

Psst: that's the tough bit, not managed to work my way there yet, still stuck on incredulous yet knowing it wasn't me, and it wasn't fair.

You'll get there, but there isn't any short cut to not reacting to the bad things people do.

You are trying to find a way over this without dealing with it, confronting anyone that's hurt/disappointed you, and I don't think that's possible.

You have to meet all this head on.

What doesn't kill you and all that.

You have to know that whatever the price you have to pay to be kind to yourself and demand/expect others do too, is currency well spent.

Marking my place as this thread had dropped off my list.

Life is pretty busy but I am lurking. Wise words by Hissy. I'm so sorry for what you have been through Mirtzapan

Mirtzapine. Sorry.

Going to read through a little later when i get the chance. The thread is filling up quickly, shame things can't go well for you all for a short while.

We are in November now, i'm guessing the Toxic's are getting prepared for the pre-christmas destruction, i know my toxic ils are.
Dh is under the fog, not as bad as normal but there, mil keeps ringing him, and leaving voicemails which he is doing well & is yet to respond

But mil has also started ringing my landline again and today she has facebook messaged me asking if we are well. I have ignored it, i intend to leave it that way and even with all the privacy i have against ils on there, i'm not happy so in time i may delete them all except from sil2 as she is the only normal one from the bunch.
Thing is deleted them may cause more intrusion, as it will lead to messages and harrassment to dh.

Do i delete or not delete? Anyone have any experience of whether this has been bad or good?
At present they can only see profile and cover photos, aswell as a few birthday photos of dc, and anything i choose for them to see which has been zilch for a long while.

I feel that it time for me to type in a response. But I'm very unsure (or possibly incapable) of how to answer your kind advice and the expressions of sympathy. I often feel that I oscillate form the rational, analytical and aware me and the rage driven, frustrated, fury monster me.

I wish there was a recipe for me to deal with all this, a Haynes manual of how to fix a broken - well - me.

We ended up having an argument last night, over the bit about her having lunch. Again she trotted out (what I feel) is a set piece answer, rehearsed to get out of the difficult conversation.

Anyway - do need a bit of clarification

You have to know that whatever the price you have to pay to be kind to yourself and demand/expect others do too, is currency well spent.

As a family we are in a pretty bad state (I've posted elsewhere about that). I don't actually understand the "kind to yourself" bit, and the "demand/expect" bit. Well! I think I may demand and expect too much from the people around me. I also find that they aren't actually able to meet the demands and expectations. Like I say, I don't think I know what your statement means.

I do understand what you mean by "marring fathers". There are times when DW says things that resonate back to my childhood but on a pico scale compared to my mothers tera scale. And this is the harshest bit I will say, she's intelligent, but an intellectual and cultural wasteland, a similarity to my mother. But again on a scale that doesn't match my mother who rose from a clerk, to bookkeeper, to accountant, to A Fiduciary, to Vice President of European Private Customer Accounts for an International Investment Bank. You may think, wft too much information there. but what its done for me right now is to put it under a microscope and realise, that although I can see elements that are similar, I'm fitting the evidence to match the crime.

I think the overall point I trying to get to is that because I suffered from diabolical parenting, that I don't have the role model or mentor to show or teach me good parenting. I particular how to lay the foundations so that the DD's don't grow up with my history hanging over them like a dark cloud.

I think I may demand and expect too much from the people around me. I also find that they aren't actually able to meet the demands and expectations. Like I say, I don't think I know what your statement means.

Neither did I at the beginning of MY journey. For me to be complemented would cause me to physically SQUIRM in discomfort. Kindness was SO alien to me, it was excruciating and upsetting.

I still greet complements and 'applause' with surprise and feel unable to take on board the nice feeling that OUGHT to be there I often thing that they are just saying that.

What this means is that you deserve love, respect, kindness, concern, care, admiration and being treasured and valued. We ALL do. You know this about your child right? well all the feelings YOU feel for your little one, are what YOU should have had and should continue to have from those in that position as a parent/partner to you.

Why should others receive better treatment/care/love/feelings from you than they give TO YOU?

The reason you had a ROW is that you refused to take her trotted out story, the usual line to get you to STFU didn't work. Anger is the usual response to events like this, with people like this. It's designed to make you scurry back into the place that THEY want you to be.

Flirting is a controversial subject in monogamous relationships, MOST people DON'T like it. Some may accept it, but that is another story, they think they have to be the 'Cool Wife/Husband/Girlfriend/Boyfriend'

any decent MNer worth his or her salt would tell you 'Bollocks to Cool!' ;)

The flirting with other men within the context of your relationship and your history is WAY worse than with others that don't have this trigger. I worry that your W uses this flirting as a way to retain some form of control/upperhand, so that if you are not behaving, she will up the ante and make more of an effort to flirt, or less of an effort to conceal it.

Not good.

Don't do yourself down with fitting evidence statements, we all know that history repeats itself, and marrying our parents is so predictable, no matter how much we rail against it.

I suggest you get some proper counselling and establish a safe place for you to rant, cry, discuss and ruminate on what your life was, is and can be.

There are some great books that can help us recover from abusive childhoods and therefore prevent the damage passing through the generations. Can't recall the book I bought off the top of my head, but remind me later when I am at home and I will find out and post details.

Truth and Your instincts, in a while, will be the best Role Model for you as a parent, but we'll come to that another day.

Main thing to accept today is that you are not alone and that you didn't cause ANY of this. You can't change these people, but you can change the way you deal with it all.

What you are aiming for is detachment.

I am intending to seek out proper counselling, I'm starting this afternoon.

I like the idea of detachment

Thank you for taking the time and trouble to reply