"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's August 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield: 

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

I've come for a rant.
(Have posted on previous stately home threads and will catch up on this one later)

I'm watching Educating Yorkshire and all the kids have their shirts sighed. We did this at school. It was lovely. But I'll never forget that my mother washed my shirt with all of my friends signatures on it and washed them all off. knew what she was doing

I also remember when I came home from a school trip to find my entire bedroom stripped of all my personal possessions. Everything gone and packed away. Posters, Nik naks. I was never allowed to be angry about these things.

I don't know why I still feel so inexplicably angry about these things! They're just two in a long list. There was the wall of silence, refusing to acknowledge me, let alone talk to me. The alcoholism and trying to turn me against people. The hard smacks around the face. The ignoring me when I was upset. Telling me I was 'sick' and needed 'help'.

I still can't forgive. But I still see her. Went nc for two years then relented. I feel so guilty. My sister is currently nc so I feel even worse. I feel family pressure too.

I've tried having an adult conversation saying why I've been so upset but there is complete denial these things ever happened.

Sorry don't know why I'm posting. Sudden attach of anger and upset

My MIL doesn't really know my 3 year old and has only met our 10 week old twice.
They are well off and throw money about alot. It's like she thinks money is love?
For expample, she'd cancel a visit..but would give DD1 £20.

All we asked for was an apology and her to realise what she'd done. obviously this isnt going to happen. so we're prepared to sweep it under the rug again
I am thinking Chritsmas is her perfect chance to show how much she 'cares' by buying a stupid amount of toys and 'popping down' with them.

i'm willing to send them back. we don't want her money and then im thinking we will be 'ungreatful'
we just want a normal woman!

How do we prepare ourselves for this?

Hi all, I've also posted on here before and it will be my first christmas of nc too (will be 7 momths by then). Not sure what i feel about it really but am dreading all the questions about what we are doing? Spending time with family etc. I don't feel guilty about going nc but i do feel a sense of shame in other people knowing.

A question to dil or sil of Toxic Inlaws

How do you deal with your own family in regards to your inlaws??

My dm says my dh has been 'off' with her for days and she is sick of it and knows his behaviour is down to his parents and wants to tell them what she thinks of them. I know this won't help in the slightest.

My dm is not happy with the fact dh has cut contact with them & sees that he is still in phone contact with them (phone contact which does involve pressure) and thinks he should stop that too.

What an earth can i do about this situation?

OMG the children are driving me INSANE this morning! Been out with DM and she's been winding me up too. DH has taken DC out for a little walk to prevent me from actually killing DS. Gah.
Will be back later when I've calmed down....

This week has been pretty much the same for me too GoodTobetter and the toxics are not helping with their attempted intrusion into dhs life with their daily phonecalls

So i have dm getting at me over dhs moods after il phone contact, the kids completely out of control & dh not quite in the right place at the moment with being under the fog. So i'm left with it all and just feel like running for the hills

Help! I am struggling so much with my mum's up and down behaviour - one day she's really nice and everything is fine and dandy, then the next she is a disaster in my life. She's got a lot of control over me still, in the way that she can ruin my day with one comment. I am not willing to go nc, for various reasons. She's also very ill (which I explained months ago), and I've no idea how long she's got left. My main concern is how I can have an 'acceptable' relationship with her once my baby is born in feb, as I can't really go round there to be very angry and upset, with a baby in tow as well. I don't feel that is fair on a helpless child! Thing is I never know whether it will be a good or a bad day. Like I said, no contact is not an option, so I have to find a way to manage the situation. Any advice would be very welcome.

A question to dil or sil of Toxic Inlaws

How do you deal with your own family in regards to your inlaws??

As a DIL to such toxics the only things I have found that works for me are:-

1. Maintaining distance both emotional and physical
2. Not telling either IL any more info than I absolutely have to if she calls (ie once in a blue moon then its really only to speak to her darling boy and enquire as to his welfare. I do not get a look in!!. I did laugh wryly to myself when DH stated that she does not phone here often because she knows that we're busy people!. Snort!!!)
3. Not visiting them now without DH in tow.

Number 2 was employed to great effect earlier this week and she has not contacted me since because I had served my purpose!.

Littleen

"Help! I am struggling so much with my mum's up and down behaviour - one day she's really nice and everything is fine and dandy, then the next she is a disaster in my life. She's got a lot of control over me still, in the way that she can ruin my day with one comment. I am not willing to go nc, for various reasons. She's also very ill (which I explained months ago), and I've no idea how long she's got left. My main concern is how I can have an 'acceptable' relationship with her once my baby is born in feb, as I can't really go round there to be very angry and upset, with a baby in tow as well. I don't feel that is fair on a helpless child! Thing is I never know whether it will be a good or a bad day. Like I said, no contact is not an option, so I have to find a way to manage the situation. Any advice would be very welcome"

I think you are on a hiding to nothing with regards to your toxic mother.
Managing such people is a both thankless and unrewarding task.

I would not ultimately dismiss no contact long term because such people wear you down emotionally and physically. Presumably her illness too has a lot to do with that current position you hold, btw have you talked to her doctors?. She certainly still has a lot of control over your life, you need to break free of that for your own sanity.

The resources at the beginning of this thread are well worth reading.

If you really cannot do no contact then I would see her as little as humanely possible and stick to phone calls only. Establish boundaries with regards to her and make and keep them as high as possible. Any slip ups means that you walk away and you keep doing that every time.

I would actually keep her away from your children on the basis that if you find her too toxic to deal with, she is certainly too toxic for your vulnerable and defenceless children. Toxic people do not make for being good grandparents.

Attila thank you for your reply, I already do try to keep my distance - I only come by when I have to pick up something or have to help out with something.

My dad relies on my help with some things, as he is exhausted from caring for her and working full time, and they refuse to ask my younger sister to help out, thinking that teenagers should have no responsibilities (I disagree). I have a great relationship with my dad, and whilst my mother has never allowed me to get to know my younger sister, I do want to get to know her, as it is not her fault that we don't have a relationship. I had a decent relationship with my mum when I lived abroad for five years, and genuinly thought this would continue even when I moved back to my hometown. Instead, it has gone back to how it was years ago, and I think my disappointment about this is a problem.

I do go to counselling, and my counsellor, as me, does not think that no contact is the right option. I guess the rather sad fact is that I am in one way relieved she does not have so long left, as it means my children (I have none yet, but one is arriving soon) will not grow up to remember the relationship I have with her. On the other hand, if she were to stay around for longer, I most likely would go no contact. I cannot do it, because it would tear my whole family apart, and quite likely cause most of my family to cut me off. Also the guilt of it would wreck me.

It's like I don't have an alternative to being there for my family, even if she so easily breaks my heart. I need to find a way to distance myself from her, so she can't hurt me. I am reading through some of the resources, hopefully they can give some advice too.

Sorry attila i meant question for dil of toxic pil, silly me.

Basically people like me with toxic il, does your own 'non toxic' mother get sick of it all ? And how does she support you and your partner deal with these cretins once they impact relationship between son in law (my dh) and my mother ( dm)

My mother expects dh to grow a backbone, when i know it isn't that simple

Meant to write this earlier, congratulations to you on your pregnancy.

I would strengthen that boundary you have for yourself in that first paragraph and further limit contact with these people.

Your Dad may well be exhausted and has a raft of responsibility but he has also failed you here hasn't he?. Men in such dysfunctional situations often act as bystanders and act too out of self preservation and want of a quiet life.

Why has he seemingly not ever stepped in with regards to his wife apparently not allowing you to have a relationship with your younger sister?. Its appalling, why was that allowed to happen?. Distance was the only saving grace you had initially and I would keep your distance now. To be honest to me your birth family is torn apart anyway because of your mother's actions and your dad's enabling of the situation to continue.

I would not take your child when he/she is born anywhere near them to be honest with you.

FOG (fear, obligation, guilt) is often seen in adult children of such toxic people and you have FOG in spades. I would ask you whether you think your Dad in particular feels at all guilty at how you have been treated; I daresay not because he probably is glad that you took the flak instead of him. Sod feeling guilty as well about them, they do not feel the same.

BTW why does your counsellor also think that NC is not the right option either?. Genuine question. Does this counsellor actually has no bias toward trying to “keep families together” despite the presence of mistreatment?.

"Basically people like me with toxic il, does your own 'non toxic' mother get sick of it all ? And how does she support you and your partner deal with these cretins once they impact relationship between son in law (my dh) and my mother ( dm)"

My parents actually think that both my ILs are very weird indeed but stays out of that as much as possible, she states that he should talk to his mother. My mother does not comment very often (she's mainly speechless particularly when it came to the French farce debacle that was FILs birthday party tea) but she did see my MIL come out of a department store once and she commented that the look MIL gave my mother was akin to a deer caught in the headlights!.

I think I need to join in. Is that okay and how do I do it please?

toffesponge

Welcome to this thread.

Write down as much or as little as you choose to on this particular thread too.

Thank you ATM. We have "spoke" before on here when I had another name and I think we have on my thread today where I am falling apart.
I was given away and taken back by my mother many times and don't see her now. She has a great life where it is all my fault that she didn't keep me. I had many foster placements and one where I was abused. I recently brought my civil case and have now been to the police. It has been very stressful.
I have 3 children, two with physical problems and one where we are struggling to get him settled in school. I have 2 boys and a girl and they do not get on at all. I have always struggled with them but the last year has been very hard where I have no control over them, they do what they want and don't take any notice and today I have sworn at the boys and smacked them. DD has been in bed all day, poorly, sleeping. I have spent all day crying.
I have no family and while the PIL will take the kids they are no good at any kind of emotional support and sometimes the break isn't worth it when FIL stresses me out and when I pick them up I get chapter and verse about them not behaving and tale telling.
No help from anyone official. I have asked for it but get told they can't help me.

Thanks atilla and welcome toffeesponge

My dm only lives round the block & does witness and put up with a lot from dh also when he is under the fog but instead of saying something like today she has waited until she has got home to go into the ins & outs etc and tell me i have to do something. But trying to tell her a toxic is unchangable goes in one ear and out the other, she seriously thinks i should phone mil and tell her to do one when i know mil will never listen or respond as she isn't normal.

Attila thank you for the congratulations! :)
My dad has indeed failed me in many ways, however he never knew about the abuse when I was growing up, as he was only home every other month (he used to work in the north sea), and it only happened when he was not there. It never happened when anyone was around, and because I'm from a very small, tightknit community, I've never been able to tell anyone. When I did finally talk to my dad, he came home and found a job on land straight away, which helped the situation greatly. He then was on my case when needed, but often trying to have a quiet life as well. Even now, he does this, and acts as a peace barrier between me and my mother, but unfortunately, she will not accept any fault or blame. She is not abusive to my younger sister, and so the issue is only with me and to some extent my older sister as well. But all in all, he does the best of his ability, and has not enabled her on purpose at least. I do not bear any grudge to him, as he has not done any wrong apart from being very naive.

My mother has psychopatic tendencies (in my counsellors words), and I have been advised to keep distance - but not to cut contact. I have been very clear that I do not want to cut contact as I believe that will only hide the problem, rather than allow me to come to terms with it. My counsellor agrees that the best option for me is to work through it all, as the past affects me to a great deal still, which would not be solved by going nc. I don't feel like defending this decision - it is mine to make, and is something I have considered very carefully.

As far as my younger sister goes - I don't think anyone have noticed (again, dad was away much of the time due to his job).
Her way of stopping the relationship was more in a case of interrupting any conversation, dismissing what I said to my sister and somehow never leaving us alone together. She then guilt tripped me when my younger sister asked why she "didn't have any sisters, like her friends did", or came with other comments like that.

Not allowing them to see my baby when he comes, is not right, as I do not want to use children as a "weapon", and my dad will be a brilliant grandparent. My mother is unlikely to be alive for much longer after baby is born, and I really don't want to cause all this stress to the rest of my family, when under so much pressure already. I am not that selfish, as the issue is solely with her, I do not wish to ruin the good relationships I have with others in my family. I simply do not think it's worth it, I don't think it would give me any satisfaction whatsoever. So it's really more a case of how to manage my response to her behaviour - she will never change, and I have accepted that. I need to distance myself emotionally, but am unsure how to do this.

"My mother is unlikely to be alive for much longer after baby is born, and I really don't want to cause all this stress to the rest of my family, when under so much pressure already. I am not that selfish, as the issue is solely with her, I do not wish to ruin the good relationships I have with others in my family".

Your Dad (still acting as a bystander in this overall dysfunction; people from dysfunctional families do end up playing roles) married someone with psychopathic tendencies (counsellors words I grant you) and it is likely also that your mother has never been clinically assessed. Normally emotionally balanced people do not behave in the ways your mother does or did; she is likely to have some form of untreated (and perhaps untreatable) personality disorder. They are also still together I note.

Have you ever talked to your Dad about your non relationship with your sister due to your mother's actions?. What does your eldest sister think of this whole situation?. Does she have any contact with either of her parents these days?

If you are happy to maintain distance in the ways that you are doing then I am not going to demur. My only concern was that some counsellors do have a degree of bias to keep families together in spite of ill treatment. To come to terms with it will involve you effectively grieving for the mother you should have had but ended up with instead.
It is a marathon, not a sprint. Its like a bereavement, the same processes apply and you could go back and forth with it for many years.
Its going to take a long time and you will undoubtedly encounter further emotional difficulties and problems when your mother does die. How will you feel when she does die?. You perhaps need to think about that now, would you attend any memorial service where perhaps other relatives will sing her praises?. You still have FOG in spades which is but one legacy of such parenting by such toxic people.

I would write a letter to her getting it all out and destroy it after writing; such actions can be cathartic.

You think you have caused stress to this family - no absolutely you have not!!!!!. You were a child when this all started and your parents failed you. Your Dad failed to completely protect you from his wife's many abuses of you. They have done this by their actions. It is not also down to you to have to manage your mother.

It is not at all selfish to keep your as yet unborn child away from your mother, if you want to maintain the relationship with your Dad (and I can see why because he seems to have tried) then fair enough but I would never let your child see his/her grandmother under any circumstances. Your Dad may want his wife to see your child as well and could actually side with her when the chips are down. The child would not be used as a weapon; a mistake some people make is to hope that their own parents will somehow act better with regards to their own grandchildren this time around; it is rarely the case that this happens. Toxic people do not make for being good grandparents.

I'm just going to leave it there because now I just feel as if I am being accused of 'abusing' my own child when he comes, by wanting to stay in touch and allow my mother to also have contact with him, for however long that may be. She is not abusive to many people, and it's not like she would have unsupervised visits or anything. Nobody realises I have no relationship with my sister, as we are so far apart in age that it seems natural anyway. Hopefully I can work on this with her. Anyway, I just feel like you are attacking me now, and my dad who really does not need to be blamed any more than me or my sisters. She did not behave this way until well into her thirties, and as I have said, does not show her bad behaviour at all, to most people. I'm glad you have figured it all out, but I need to find a different way that works for me, without your rather judgemental comments.

No-one is judging, but if you can't handle your mother, a full grown adult, how can your child?

If your mother hurt you, and someone saw, but did nothing to make it stop, how are they not allowing/enabling your abuse?

You're not ready to see the truth yet, but it's true.

There isn't a middle way, you HAVE to protect your DC.

Côme back and ask questions, this is a journey.

One you're not ready to take just yet, but one day you will be.

Littlen you are not ready yet, maybe in time you will be, remember your baby is an innocent and does need protecting from people like your mum. Although it is harsh, it's true and none of this is you being a problem, it's your dm.

Dh isn't quite there yet but my new baby will not be seeing my ils, as it isn't safe or good for my baby. I had to do whats best for my children, although it has caused problems. Much better that than watch my children messed up for life & the cycle of toxicity continuing.

Hi Littleen,
Has your counsellor given you coping skills, and by that I mean coping with the degrading insults in the moment, rather than just strategies to detox after the fact?

Cynical one that I am, counsellors probably would not endorse No Contact. Why? Because then you would not need counselling.

Imho, the dynamic with the baby and toxic relative plays out over a period of time. As an infant, social sparring would not be recognised per se, but I do believe infants and very young children can sense tension in their environment. Another perspective to consider might be that the toxic one could use the baby as a prop (dehumanizing to the little one) with which to further hurt you.

As time passes, the toxic one may attempt to turn your child against you...("Grandma's way is much much better than silly Mommy's way, isn't it? Isn't it? Oh yes it is, everyone knows that.")
Be prepaired to counter every such attempt in the moment so the little one's brain circuits are not wired against you, that means you will need to debrief your child after each encounter.

Good luck...but at the end of the day, I agree with the above posters who speak from experience. And as a side note, my toxic sister has never met my dd2 (5yo).

Its tough to know what to say, this is going to be the first time ever that I've written down anything about my childhood. My mother is/was an alcoholic. My step father is/was an alcoholic paranoid schizophrenic (I say is/was because it has been so long since I've had contact - they could be both dead).

My childhood was filled with violence, emotional abuse from both of them and sexual abuse from my mother.

This is my one "good" memory of the time I lived with them (I ran away at 13 and a bit and never lived with them again). I was about 11 at the time and one Sunday morning, I got up and saw my stepfathers whiskey bottle. And as I was a Dandy and Beano reader, I thought to myself it would be a "wizard wheeze" (I can remember that exact though) to pour away his whiskey and fill it with cold tea. I did this because the first thing my Stepfather would do would be to take his morning swig. The last thing I can remember is a shout of "Judy -get that little bastard". I have no recollection of the fall out of that - I guess it was one of my more severe beatings as I was hospitalised on a few occasions. To this day I can generally remember the beatings.

It does sort of feel like exhibitionism, relating what happened. They both had very different techniques. My mothers standard method was to punch or slap me across my head. when she was really angry she'd pick something up. My stepfathers was to punch me on my arms, shoulder blades or chest. By the time I got to 12, my mother would have to pin me down as I had started boxing at the age of 10 and started to fight back with my stepfather, who in hindsight must have been a total weed given I knocked a couple of his teeth out when I was 11-12ish because he tried to hit a friend of mine. Another time, I can't recall what caused it, but i'd walked into the living room and he started hitting me. I punched him squarely in the face knocking him down, he was stunned and I can remember, very dispassionately, placing one knee on his chest I got my thumbs firmly placed on his knobbly Adams apple and squeezed, I can remember exactly how his faced looked as I pushed it down - even to this day I'm only saddened by the face that I didn't finish it only because my mother intervened.

The sexual abuse started when I was about six, I remember the first time my mother got me into bed with her, she was naked and had me lie on top of her and then got me to perform oral sex on her. This was because she was "lonely", the sex would stop when she got another man in her life. My mother and father divorced when I was six months old. My stepfather was in and out of psychiatric hospital so when he was away I was back in my mothers bed so she wasn't lonely. I remember being in bed with her, the morning of day he was due to come home from his latest stay in hospital. I asked why he was coming back, her reply was "he'll never leave me you will" It also was the day I left home. I just walked and walked so I could be away from them.

My memory's of all this don't feel like my own. When, like now, I re-live them it feels like a reality tv show has placed cameras in my childhood homes and that I'm watching it or floating above it watching it.

I hate my childhood so much, everything was a drunken fiasco, punctuated by being hit. My one regret is that I never hit my mother back. They were animals. They both were investment bankers, well my stepfather was until his madness and alcoholism stopped him from working. I think my mothers brutality was a boon to her job as she steadily rose as they moved from the UK to Boston and then Switzerland. My one hope is that they have both dies of really painful illnesses relating to alcohol.

This all ended 34 years ago and three weeks ago I was having to go over my childhood to a Psychiatric nurse and she asked me a question, "Wasn't anything done about it". So I told her the only time I could remember something. I'd received a pretty bad one over the weekend, they'd both been kicking and punching me and while I was on the floor, my stepfather must have stomped on my back, because during the following weeks PE lesson the PE teacher saw the bruising and the unmistakable tread marks of DM shoes in the bruising and asked me how it happened - I don't really recall much happening after that point, if social services intervened, I doubt it it was the 70's after all and wealth middle class pigs people like my mother and stepfather didn't do those things.

Another thing that they had decided upon was to go down that idiotic 70's notion of being "socialist" and sending me to the local sink state school, like Jonathan Miller did to his kid's, instead of the posh public schools they went to. Having no stability at home and no stability at school and not having a decent education, is now buggering up things for me, DW and the DC's.

At the age of 15 I was finally taken in by my grandparents, who actual respected my wishes not to see my parents. It must have been so tough for my grandparents. I fought my way out of an educational ghetto by using the money I was saving from my then part-time job labouring for builders, to pay for three O levels at night school, I got them and at 17 got into the sixth form of the Local Grammar school to do A levels. Got into university. Nine years ago I got married. I don't really know what relevance that has, but I know I want my own life to stop being the car crash that it now is. I'm finding it difficult to hold down a job, un-able to make effective decisions and so worried that my abused life will have now on the DC's as they are getting older as I do everything that is the opposite of my childhood. My inner demon is screaming at me at this moment, to grow up, get a grip and be a man about it.