"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's August 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012
January 2013
March 2013

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread here (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/ siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/ angry/ hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/ lifetime experiences of being hurt/ angry etc by our parents behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/ or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn't have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing up, how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/ or current parental contact, has left you feeling damaged, falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful, if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect your feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defences that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety, will undoubtedly use it during confrontation, to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behaviour. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof, the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offences against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me, when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me, to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties, without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behaviour. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get" or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ...."

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realise that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1834279-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

This final quote is from smithfield posting as therealsmithfield: 

"I'm sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don't claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support."

Happy Posting

Don't go. Have a proper holiday elsewhere and, if you must see dm make it for only a day or two at the start of the month so that you can relax once that ordeal is over.

When you get home, find some lovely lonely old person and visit them regularly. There's loads and they need occasional company.

I wouldn't go wellie, it won't be much of a holiday if you can't enjoy it. Book somewhere nice for you & your own family x

Thanks, Hissy you're right. I will keep plugging away and as long as we can manage on the money we'll be OK. DC are looked after and put to bed by their dad when I'm at work and I have Friday afternoons and the weekends with them. We live in a lovely place, and we have a nice life I think, considering our income. And we are together.

The money making possibilities are limited to what I'm doing. The rates for private classes are low here and to get more money I'd have to travel, negating the increase in fee iyswim. Also, the vast majority of people want classes in the afternoon, which is when I work.

You can't offset rent against the business. You can offset gas, electric and phone, but only if you are registered self employed, which means you must pay 260 euros EVERY SINGLE MONTH WHETHER YOU EARN OR NOT. I used to do that before the work dried up and had to stop, as I was losing money.

I can do up to 3000 euros a year of work and bill legally, but after that I would have to register self employed and pay the taxes.

So, we'll keep tightening our belts, looking for work and remembering that things could be (and were) so much worse.

I need to stop being such a perfectionist and beating myself up. I need to get over feeling not good enough or like I'm not doing enough (in all areas of my life).

Wellie i would visit. I had the same experience with my dm over summer when we were touring Europe and expected to visit her. I coped by thinking of the worst scenarios and determining a strategy for dealing with them. In my case it involved a lot of smiling and nodding and calling her out when needed. Ok the latter led to a massive rant when i was called allsorts but as id expected that response it didn't get me.

Now im glad i visited because our time together strengthened my conviction that minimising dm impact on my life and my dc is the right thing to do.

good sorry you're feeling a bit :( at the moment. It does sound like you're doing an amazing job of maintaining a stable, loving family environment which is the most important thing by a long way.

wellie I hate that feeling of obligation. Having to deal with it on both sides cannot be much fun.

I'm namechange, btw. Keep blowing my cover, can't be bothered anymore!

Hi namechange getyoursocksoff how are you getting on?

Wellie I'd be inclined to see her for a couple of days tops and then try to enjoy the rest of our holiday. sorry to hear you have dificult parents and PIL.

Hi everyone. I'm new to posting on MN and not sure if it's okay to talk about sexual abuse on this thread or if that goes somewhere else?

Hi PeachMint, I am certain there are threads specifically about sexual abuse. I don't know if anyone on here has been in that situation.

I'm not sure I want to get into details about that in any case. The main reason I came to this thread is because I'm in the process of trying to phase my toxic mother out of my life. And one of the many ways in which she was/is toxic is that she knew about the thing I mentioned above and she did nothing. She let it happen. She was also neglectful, emotionally abusive etc and stood by while we were hit with belts and stuff.

I'm not looking for advice really, just wanting to be among people who know how maddening it is to be told oh but she's your mother, she did her best, all that rubbish. How is it that I'm an adult and I still feel like a little kid wondering why I wasn't worth looking after? I'm having counselling but it's a long slow process and I just feel like I'm never going to be like everyone else.

Glad to hear you are having counselling peachmint and welcome to the thread. Sorry that you are brought here by abusive parents though. :(

good I've been a bit low, I think it's the realisation that this it with mum, it's never going to improve.

peachmint welcome. Do you instigate contact with your mum?

Thank you both for the welcome, sorry for the rant back there. I don't instigate contact with her exactly, it's just not easy to totally untangle things.

Hello, I have no idea if I'm in the right place or even if this is appropriate but I really need some advice.

So we are a dysfunctional family, my parents are still together after 40 years and have 2 children, my B 28 and me 26.
My B has no contact with me at all. We both live a distance from them and never visit at the same time, he doesn't like me and proclaims I ruined his childhood. By my own admission I was a nightmare, I lied, I stole, I truanted from school, I shouted and screamed, you name it I probably did it and I hate myself for being that person but I also feel like ice paid the price, my father was violent in response to this. It's scarred me to the point I can't be followed up the stairs.
Anyway fast forward; i now have a DD and am a LP although we're contemplating giving things another go.
Tonight my parents agreed to help financially but not before informing me of the effect on their retirement fund and how this would be the last money they would ever give me.
When I retorted that my B was given money for a house their response was "well yes but he didn't ask, we offered" - that just hurts more because they never offer me.
On top of this Xmas is looming and it may well be the 6th consecutive year they have invited my B and not me inc last yr with 2 week old DD their compromise was to come at 5pm.
I am not allowed in the house if B is there.
They treat me like a child and constantly throw my childhood bk at me and even hope my DD to be that way so i can see what it's like.
When they asked tonight why I was so angry and what I actually wanted I responded for them to love me and treat me fairly which is rather pathetic from a 26 yr old but I did not expect to be told 'you can't force people to love you!!!!'

Maybe that's where I've been going wrong all my life.
Do I cut all contact? Is it the or is it actually me?? xx

As my counsellor said to me you were a child then, it was their job to help you. If your parents and brother keep bringing it up, they're not being very understanding nor loving.

How would it impact your life to go nc? The thing is, if you cut them out, you lose the few helpful things as well as the many destructive aspects of your relationship.

Ah, sorry Peachmint I misunderstood your initial post. Thinking you were looking for supportbrelating to sexual abuse, I didn't want to encourage you to share if there was no-one here able to help. Toxic parents, though...

You absolutely were worth looking after. Your mother failed you. Why doesn't matter except that it was not your fault. There is no way it could have been your fault. You needed protection from your abusers (I include your mother in that group) and it is devastating that you were not protected.

Flumpy, what on earth do you get out of this dreadful relationship?

Do you really have to accept their money?

You are about thé most extreme case of Scapegoat i've seen for a while.

Your brother is orchestrating this. You parents enabling his treatment of you.

Don't do christmas. If you're not made welcome, then you don't go.

What's your exbf like? Why did you split?

The reason I ask is that there's a probability that given your childhood, that he could be similar to them, or worse. Unless i'm wrong here, and I hope to god I am, then you need to give him the swerve too.

It's not you, Flumpy.

GoodtoBetter and HellesBelles
You didn't misunderstand, I'm sorry I wasn't clear. I don't think I knew what I wanted really, I was umming over whether to jump in and post, and then I came back and started typing and some stuff just kind of came out. I was worried about saying the wrong thing, I guess.

I find it really hard with my mother because people say things like, oh, you have to understand that people do their best with what they have, I know that but understanding it doesn't make it feel any better. I am sick of always having to be the one who understands, do you know what I mean?

Doesn't help that therapy is bloody expensive. There aren't really any good NHS options round here. It's worth it I'm sure, but I just wish I didn't have to.

Flumpy2012
Sounds like we were similar as teenagers. Has it occurred to you that you weren't 'bad' but reacting to how your family treated you and acting out anger and hurt? And it is definitely them not you!!

peachmint it might be true that your mother tried her best but that doesn't mean the way she has behaved is acceptable or that you have to put up with it. It's not your fault, it is hers.

Peachmint, there is no such thing as the wrong thing to say here love!

Some of us may not have suffered sexual abuse, but abuse IS abuse and standing by while someone is out and out mean/shitty or just plain taboo kinda wrong is something we can all identify with and our hearts will ache for you.

We will listen, and we will care.

People who say about abuse of any kind, that 'he/she did their best' are a bunch of idiots who frankly don't want to hear your pain. You don't have to be the one that understands, nor the one who accepts it. You can say to them, that NO, I don't understand how she could allow X to do X, Y and Z and not do SOMETHING... I may not no much, but there is no way I'd allow it to happen to MY kids... OR YOURS without speaking up, wouldn't YOU? throw it back at THEM. Watch them mumble and then sniff at them and leave them to it.

Also remember the Stately Homer statement:

"Just because you don't remember it the way I do mother, doesn't mean that it didn't happen."

BACP can find subsidised counsellors, have you tried them? Failing that, you could look at going every OTHER week, as I do. It's not as effective, but ultimately it is gentle and at a slower pace, which all in all is not a bad thing.

Hello,

Thank you for your replies and support.

I don't get a lot out of the relationship to be honest. There is an aspect of practical help but there is just so much hurt and so many guilt trips and I just can't take anymore.

My brother just doesn't want contact with me which is his choice but my parents make it such a big deal and have let it get this bad.

If I go NC should I use exp for contact with my dd for them? Has anyone else done this?

Exp is ok, we've been up and down but he has finally been out on meds for depression and through relate we have become 'very stable and supportive of each other' to quote the counsellor tonight. So it looks promising there but I'm not banking on anything at the moment. Xx

I'm nc flumpy and ds still sees gp's. He's 12 and we live in the same village so he arranges all that himself because he wants a relationship with them.

Hissy, thank you. Re counselling, I'm paying a sliding scale rate, so it's not too bad, but it's still an expense I could do without. It's one of the many things that gets to me - I feel like I was chewed up and spat out and now I'm literally paying the price.

On the upside, I think I'm probably a much better parent for it, in that I've taken the time to think and educate myself about how not to totally get it wrong.

Flump, tell your parents that they're welcome to come and see DD, but that you'll not be feeding the golden child monster that is your brother.

If they can't decide to do what's right by you, by your DD, then that's their choice.