Serious value differences in relationships - what to do?

[ConflicteD123]

Hi all, would really appreciate some advice/opinions re value/moral differences in a relationship. I've had a big falling out with long term DP over his anti choice stance and I'm not totally sure the sensitivity around this sort of difference of opinion is compatible with continuing the relationship (which is otherwise very good). I obviously don't want to break up when most things are good, but the divide has genuinely been bothering me for a number of months and affects the way I see him, how looked after/cared for I feel as a woman etc. Has anyone ever discussed any value/moral differences through relationship counselling?

It is very important to note that this is mainly a hypothetical/political argument at this point as have never been personally affected by the issue at all (although I may have friends who have), but it has partially arisen now due to large amount of media coverage/campaigns etc. which has resulted from recent changes in Ireland. There will likely be further changes and a referendum in the future. On a personal level I in no way anticipate an accidental/unexpected pregnancy, however I do worry about whether I would feel fully supported in the event of a future pregnancy having one of the severe abnormalities which it is possible to screen for - as have read a bit on other mumsnet topics about this. Thanks for reading.

Excuse me for butting in, but fifi669 isn't saying that she thinks a man should have control over a woman's body:

in the end the father has no say over the fate of his unborn child

I just feel sorry for men as they have no choice

They are both quite clearly saying that a woman has autonomy, and that a man doesn't have any rights.

I don't think it is unreasonable to think that a man might have an emotional connection with a group of cells/foetus/baby and that they might struggle emotionally with an abortion. There are reasons why many women have counselling pre/post an abortion, whatever the reason for said abortion. Yes, men have no rights over decision making in this issue, but you can't deny them the right to have feelings, surely?!

This isn't meant to be an anti choice post, or anti woman or pro man (and I don't think it is).

As for the OP, it depends on your wider relationship surely? If my partner kept pushing a topic on me that I didn't want to discuss, I'd probably be a bit miffed. However, unless you are celibate you (as a woman but also as a couple) may well face a scenario where you think an abortion is best, and so it probably does warrant some sort of discussion, if only so that you both know how each other feels.

Thank you isabel

There's also an issue if you have children who would like the right to choose. I'd want to be able to talk to teenage children, for example, quite openly about the pros and cons of abortion, without having someone breathing down my neck saying that there shouldn't be the right to choose.

Isabel They are both quite clearly saying that a woman has autonomy, and that a man doesn't have any rights.

Which isn't even true.

It's precisely because abortion discussions can turn into this kind of hysterical nonsense that it would be advisable to be in a relationship with someone who is on the same page.

It should be a dealbreaker for both. If a man is vehemently opposed to abortion then it would be in his interests to be in a relationship with a woman who is also against the idea of abortion and would never consider having one. Or matches his beliefs ie only aborting in X or Y situation.

Similarly if a woman would consider abortion in any circumstance then she needs to make sure she is with a partner who either supports her right to choose in any situation or is happy with it for the same reasons she would be.

Personally I believe it's the woman who has to go through pregnancy and therefore it is her choice, always. And I really, really feel for any man in the situation where a woman carrying his baby decides to abort. I think that would be an awful and horrendous situation to be in. However, it was never his choice in the first place. Sorry, but until they invent something whereby they can extract a live foetus and the man can carry it himself, it's never going to be his choice and that's the way it should be.

I could not be in a relationship with someone who didn't broadly share the values that I have. Tastes and interests - that's a different matter - values are really important.

Similarly, I also believe that someone who is anti-choice is someone who believes that women don't have domain over their own bodies and that would be a big red flag to me.

I'm sorry, I clearly am not accurate on the laws wrt this. It has always been my understanding that a man (or indeed anyone else) cannot force a woman to either have an abortion when she doesn't want one, or not have an abortion if she does want one. (Outside 24 weeks/health of mother/foetus laws, which I don't think are up for debate in this thread). If that is not the case then I apologise for inaccuracy and am rather appalled as well.

I'm not trying to descend into hysterical nonsense (and don't think I have) and indeed think it is beneficial to be in a relationship with someone with broadly similar beliefs - I suppose I'm broadly in agreement with YoniBottsBumgina. This appears not to be the case for the OP, but I don't know if that necessarily means they should break up - I don't know enough about their wider relationship or their exact views on this topic (especially his, and especially how trenchantly they are held) to judge - I probably phrased my last paragraph poorly.

ImperialBlether has also raised an interesting point which I had not considered with children and discussing this topic/supporting them if they face this choice - something to ponder on.

Actually, even I (total pro-choice hardliner; I believe that women should be able to terminate their pregnancies for any reason right up until the moment of birth) can appreciate that a man may grieve if the woman he has impregnated chooses to abort. It's not inherently wrong for him to feel sadness, and he may well deserve sympathy. But sympathy is absolutely limited to acknowledging his sorrow, not in giving him any right of veto, because he does not own the woman and he does not have any control over her uterus.

Thanks everyone, wasn't expecting to get so many responses but it's giving me lots to think about. How different lots of the responses are from each other really captures how hard this is to know what to do - some say dealbreaker and I wrote the post partly as I had been gradually starting to consider if that was the case myself - but however sensible it might have been as a dealbreaker when we got together 5 years ago - at that point I had never really thought about this issue at all, and now that we have such an advanced relationship it's so much harder to think about, just thinking about it is tearing me apart. (And yet at the same time - I don't think I could be properly happy if I just swept it under the carpet right now).

To the people who say - he won't change his mind - wouldn't expect a complete uturn but was really hoping it would be possible that he would at least change/soften his stance somewhat - I myself have changed (though perhaps not from as extreme a position as him) as a result of exposure to coverage in Irish newspapers etc in the last year - which included opinion articles but also personal accounts of individual women. However, this doesn't even seem to have a chance of happening at the moment as he's not open to even the idea of changing a bit - he just seems to assume he won't change. Yet on the other hand, I think he is as invested in the relationship as me so surely he could go to a bit of effort if this is something important for saving it?

Btw - it's not a religious thing - although he had a very religious upbringing, he has rebelled very strongly against this in every single other aspect.

A lot of people are referring to - well it would be the woman's decision anyway if anything happened - but I wish I could figure out how this could work in a relationship -fair enough might be true in a strictly legal sense - (depending on the country) but would it not just lead to resentment and relationship breakdown. That's why I mentioned 'get him to agree now that it would be my decision' when still hypothetical- so that there might be less resentment later? When I mentioned something to him about how maybe only women's feelings should matter he questioned what other aspects of his children he'd get no say in - which maybe was a fair point? Relationship breakdown later would be even worse than now, however, as the chance of this kind of crises are small maybe it'd be worth the risk.

I'm really confused, thinking of further discussions over email (as more structured and harder to get snappy that way and as after many years of living together, we are going to be living at opposite ends of country for the next year and next visit following the one just finished isn't for a few weeks). Also hoping maybe relationship counselling could help us talk about it in a calmer way and maybe come to an agreement about what halfwayhouse we could 'agree to disagree' at.

Some people are just rigid & intractable in their thinking, and I don't think it's wise to think his views can be changed. He may change them, he may not, he may change them in a way you don't like, so really you have to accept his views as they are now & work with that.

That you say he is not 'empathy' based but 'principles' based, is a concern because principles are abstract. If he lacks empathy on this issue it may be applied to you in future. You question if the issue could potentially lead to 'resentment & relationship breakdown' & it could. Fifi's father's reaction is a case in point.

Tbh I would be as concerned that he is dismissive & sarcastic about your views as much as his actual opinion. First, it's extremely disrespectful in a relationship & second, it's an extraordinary topic on which to be dismissive of a female partner's opinion!

My concern with some pro-lifers, male & female, is they can end up in a position that champions the rights of the baby over that of the mother. Savita Halappanavar is a tragic example.

I didn't say so upfront, but it would be a dealbreaker for me. I would not want to be in a relationship where my P would not understand & fully support an abortion if necessary. It's a stressful enough decision to have make, & procedure to undergo, without a partner being sarcastic & talking about eugenics.

I think the fact that he 'resents' talking about this is extremely immature, does he not connect this issue to his own sex life?