Drifting apart from really nice friends because of the brutal way he treats his children

[bananabreadhead]

I have changed my name for this for personal reasons.

Dp and I are friends with another couple. We were quite close to them. The problem is the way he treats his kids. They have two boys who I must say are very naughty and badly behaved BUT that's life and didn't bother us. But the dad hits them - a lot and in front of us and our daughters. He twists their arms, smacks them round the head and dp has seen him punch one of them.

He is such a nice guy most of the time but obviously we find this behaviour really upsetting. We don't know what to do as it has got to the stage where we avoid seeing him with his children. Dp doesn't want to say anything as he thinks it is none of our business. It is a real dilemma.

yeash, he's obviously nice guy. A nice guy who just so happens to punch his children.
Why would you want to be friends with someone who behaves like that?

Punch & twisting their arms ? Jesus. It's no wonder the kids are a bit raucous if THAT's their role-model. Poor lads

Erm... if I saw a man punching a child, I would call the police.

Even if he was a friend. The bastard needs to know it's abuse.

What does the mother think about the hitting, punching etc? It's no wonder the children are badly behaved if that's the kind of role model they've got.

I know it sounds ridiculous to describe him as nice! But if you met him you would think that, honestly. What do we do? How can we address this - do you think we should say something?

yeah .. like that's a dilemna

the dilemna would be whether to tell him he's a bully or an abuser

We chose to let contact fizzle out with some friends because we didn't like the way he spoke to his children. We never saw any rough handling but you can be just as upsetting with verbal abuse I think.
It helped that they moved some distance away.
The friendship dated from pre-children, so it was sad, but he too was a "nice guy" to everyone except his children sometimes.
I understand bbh. You see it once and you think uh-oh, bad day. You see it twice and you think, oh this is not on.
Just don't return calls and don't initiate meetings.

TBH, people who deal with children inappropriatly are not all evil psycho monsters so I can see your dilemma. However, I have to say that if you see a child being treated badly then it is your business.

I would not be happy to leave it alone and say nothing, there could be all sorts of reasons behind this perhaps he was treated that way as a child and does not have the luck to have learned another way to behave.

I think I would have to say something, either to him, or get dh to do the "all blokes together" come on that's out of line type chat, or if you can't facde taht then I would call SS and have a good chat with them, explain your concerns and say that you thin they need support to find new ways to discipline their children and deal with the behaviour.

You are accepting that the friendship is over anyway so you have nothing to lose if they get annoyed at you for doing this.

Gosh, I missed the punching I see. Ugh.

When I was a child I was treated very badly by my mother's dp. One by one all their friends stopped visiting. When I was older and had left home I saw some of these people. They admitted that they'd stayed away because, like you, they couldn't bear to see children treated that way. My first thought was "Well thanks a bloody lot for leaving me to deal with it! Why didn't you report it to someone?"

Please report it.

Put it this way, if you saw someone you didn't know doing this - a neighbour, say - you'd be on MN wondering whether you should call Social Services or the NSPCC.

Or maybe ring the NSPCC advice line? Anonymously, just to talk it over with someone? It sounds really grim and if that's what he does in front of you, who knows what's going on behind closed doors?
You don't really want to be in a position many years down the line of feeling that you could have done something to prevent this kind of abuse but didn't.

Also, how does his wife react?

It could be that she doesn't like the way he carries on, but is in denial about it - maybe they've argued and she's lost the argument because he won't listen to her. If another friend told her in no uncertain terms that they consider her DH's behaviour abuse and feel duty bound to report it if they see it again, it could be the support she needs to oppose him

Many abusers are on the surface perfectly plausible and "nice" to people in the outside world. You're seeing another side of him though - your choice is to ignore it or to take some action. Those children of his have no choice whatsoever - they cannot ignore it. They are learning from this behaviour and may go on to repeat same as adults.

What if either of these children ended up in hospital because of him causing them harm?. How would you feel then?.

Where's Mum in all this - I notice her reaction to all this violence has not been mentioned at all. If he's hitting his children, he's likely to be hitting her or beign verbally abusive as well. If he is like this outdoors and in company what is he like at home?.

Call the NSPCC initially and listen to their suggestions as to how to handle this situation.

You do not want your inaction to be on your conscience.

And absolutely second what Coppertop is saying.

My father was an alcoholic, wife-battering, child abusing pervert, but to everyone else he was 'just a normal, nice bloke'. It's common for an abuser to appear to be an upstanding member of the community to outsiders.

I wouldn't drift away from them. I think my actions would inevitably end the friendship, because I'd have to say or do something.

Sod the friendship I'd report them personally

I feel desperately sorry for his wife who I like a lot. She is a kind woman who I would hate to abandon. It is almost impossible to reconcile his behaviour with the way he appears. I have never seen him punch but dp has.

We were friends with them before we noticed the violence and because we don't see him with his children very often it took a long time to realise what he was doing. I think his father used to hit him.

It would cause a huge rift in not only our friendship but with their friendships with others so reporting them is not a decision I would take lightly.

What would happen if, one day, someone came to your work place (or similar) and gave you a tape of your friend, in this tape your friend has been asked to look after your children and is looking after them in exactly the way you describe here. Just imagine it fro a moment or two. Now think about how the boys mother must feel watching it every day.

We are adults, we have duty to protect children and if a parent is not capable for whatever reason then someone else has to step into that breech - and in this case it would appear to be you.

You know you have to change things for them - or at least try oryou wouldn't have come here - you already knew what we would all say. IMO you need to bite the bullet here

yes I agree I have a duty to try and do something. But I don't think watching a tape of him hitting my kids is relevant because we do not even smack our children so I would be obviously totally shocked. I imagine his wife is slightly immune to it, or even thinks that he is doing the right thing. I know she is at the end of her tether with one of her children's behaviour so maybe she condones it it a strange way.

It is so horrible . We even gave the guy some work around our house and garden (they are on a very low wage) so that would have to stop too, which would put them even deeper into poverty .

No of course not????? Do you think it is ok because his wife could have been made immune to it?? I was trying to illustrate a point not suggett that you did that?

I have to say I think your attitude is a little odd, you know this is wrong, you know htat you have to do soemthing and yet you are arguing about it? I have tried to be really balanced and helpful, but now TBH I just want to shake you...

THESE CHILDREN ARE SUFFERING AND YOU HAVE THE CHANCE TO DO SOMETHING THAT MAY JUST HELP THEM

Where the hell is the question in there?

He needs help ! Managing his anger and understanding how he should treat his children !

Maybe he believes this is the normal way to bring kids up - if that's how he was treated maybe he does ?

You need to do something to make him/them realise that what he does is not right.

Not sure that jumping in there with direct action is best route - Can you do this subtley maybe ? Talk about someone you know who had their kids taken off them by SS because they were seen hitting them ? Just plant the idea that this is unacceptable ? Mock shock - "Can you believe that someone would actually PUNCH a child ?? That's abuse !" kind of conversation ?

He may honestly not realise ! Not condoning it or anything - but my dh shouts at our dd a lot and very loudly - that's the way his Dad was with him - and until I told him it wasn't right he really didn't realise !

At least this way you might be able to get something done without a big confrontation. Call me a coward - but I just don't do big confrontations.

Sorry you feel that way securmummy, you have given some good advice. I understand how you feel but sometimes real life is more tangled and complicated than it may first appear on mumsnet. I would be saying the same as you if I was reading about this on the internet, but in real life it takes care and thoughtfulness to extricate yourself from situations like this without unnecessarily hurting the innocent people involved.

I understand if it seems black and white to people reading but unfortunately life is not always that easy

Thank you norah that is the way I feel about it I think.