Finding my mother increasingly difficult

[KevinFoley]

This is going to sound completely trivial compared to all the awful relationship issues posted on this site but it's really beginning to bother me so I'd like to vent a little about my issues with my mother.

She's mid 60s and has been on her own since father left her in her early 20s, (??as a result) she's very bitter and mistrustful of men and life in general. Over the years i was living at home this made my early relationships with men very difficult. She's also totally risk adverse and has shit over/criticised everything I've done that doesn't conform to her perspective on life or getting above one's station. Examples: she refused to support me doing (ruined my confidence and put me off applying for) a specific course at university (which looking back would have been life changing). So I went into a job which pleased her but which has been a difficult and grinding choice. When I got a cleaner (working full time with DC) she constantly criticised the standard of cleaning and nagged me constantly about the decision until I gave up the cleaner. It's hard to describe how she has successfully undermined so many of my choices, albeit to say it's been through a gradual and sustained criticism and nagging. She won't let anything go she is unhappy with or anxious about, and manages to turn every conversation around until she gets what she wants. She is also a monumental sulker, prickly when she has been slighted and can keep an atmosphere up for days.

She's always been an 'unhappy', difficult woman but since she retired this has got much much worse as she has more time to think and stew. She's fallen out with the few friends she had bar one (their fault of course), her sister sees her but won't go out much with her and definitely won't go away with her on holiday as her need to control and be difficult gets much worse when she is away. She has no hobbies or interests and looks down on people who do. We've taken her on holiday with us for the past few years but I can't do this to DH and DD again as mum sniped/bitched/nagged constantly at DH and I during the last 2 holidays. Unfortunately she now almost expects to come away with us and this has meant this year not inviting her and her looking disappointed and making constant sad/snippy comments about how lovely it must be to be going away. I feel totally responsible for her as am an only child and she lives down the road. Plus, believe it or not from what I've written but she really loves DD and us and is helpful whenever, so it's not all bad. Unfortunately things were awful last week when DH dared to suggest changing DDs schooling to private for secondary, this led to a complete outburst where she massively insulted DH and went completely over the line and verbally attacked him. We were so shocked by the venom it was difficult to respond and the next day mum acted like nothing had even happened. I've tried pointing her behaviour out to her and when she gets onto a contentious issue I tell her I'm not prepared to discuss further. Unfortunately this leads onto a massive outburst and sulk and she refuses to accept anything other than her own view. Most of the time I keep the conversation on a light note but if she has something she needs to nag about or say she makes sure it comes out anyway. She is totally dependent on us for visits and company by the way so I feel massively responsible for her welfare.

Gah, any thoughts about how to manage my relationship with her in a better way? Thank you.

You know, mid-sixties is hardly old. There's still time for your mother to completely turn her life around. So try not to feel that things must always be like this. Although it's obviously very hard at the moment.

Your mother clearly does love you - she just doesn't seem to love herself. And (amateur psych) resents anything you might possibly do or have that she has so far missed out on. And she's so afraid that you might disappear - emotionally, intellectually or socially.

She does sound very unhappy. I understand what you say about looking down on people with hobbies - because she has become accustomed to the inaccessibility, and therefore wrongness, of fun. Or it may be that she associates fun with men who leave their families ...

I have no advice. I don't see what you could do that she would accept until she wanted to change herself.

I don't know how to help but I'm interested in replies - your DM sounds very similar to mine except my mum (also divorced in her twenties) has had partners since but has never been happy. It's like she refuses to be and looks down on people who are. Like she's waiting for things to go wrong just to prove her point. Exactly the same as your DM re: hobbies, massively controlling, walks round with nay-saying magazine articles in her head that always prove her point. But on the other side, she's also hugely supportive with the kids, house etc...I wish she could find a way to be happy.

She sounds awful and I can sympathise because the similarities to my mother (65) are striking. I am about to start my own thread about my mother so will watch this with interest.

I wish I could offer you advice or some suggest something but I just dont know what to do about my Mum. I love her cos she is my Mum and loves me and my DC, and does do odd little kind and helpful things inbetween the dramas, sulks, strops and upsets. My Dad (who is still with her - but I am unsure why) reckons its some kind of mental illness. She has had severe depression in the past and now I am grown up I can look back and realise she has never been on the right side of normal.

I have had some long chats with my Dad recently about it as it has got worse in the past 20 years and increasingly so now. My mum has not worked full time since I was born (I am 40) and never had a hobby or commitment because she has a cleaning/housework/house maintencance obsession. I have suggested to my dad that he tries to get her into a a once weekly commitment - like OAP computer club/swimming or something to break up her monotony and all the time she has to dwell on the world and its peoples faults and maybe breaks the cycle of her negative thoughts and gives her something else to think about. I do think its too much time to get worked up over mundane shit that the rest of us dont have time to dwell on and hence worked up over because we are busy. I am not hopeful though we can change her at this age.

My mum is also a hypochondriac and on a miriad of medication for god knows actually what - but has sleeping pills because she is "too worked up" to sleep. I suspect she may be on anti depressants too. She is at the Drs frequently and so offloads there, but no Dr has ever told her she has X condition and needs X therapy - to our knowledge but tbh, I dont think she would come home and say the Dr says I behave like this because I am metally ill and I need to do X therapy because to her, she is moody and like she is because us and thew world around her are all at fault.

Sorry I cant be more help but I will be reading with interest because your Mum sounds scarily similar to mine and its awful and affecting my relationship with her.

Yes - the medication/self medication is also a feature here.

The small amount of times (three in total) that DM joined a night class, she looked down on the other people in the class so much that she decided she couldn't be around them and didn't go back after the first session.

The only thing she stuck at was a four year Counselling diploma (I know!!!) and then didn't continue because she didn't believe in it and doesn't think it works...

Sorry OP, just sharing in the hope that it helps you see you're not alone x

Forgive me KevinFoley but it rather sounds as if you're pretty well allowing her to be like this and I'm not sure that .....so it's not all bad.... is a decent basis for a relationship which could well continue for another 20 or 30 years. (With potential long term effects on you, your DH and your children.)

Have you tried withdrawing - for their sake as much as your own?

Two things:

You've probably done this a hundred times already, but would it be worth sitting down with your aunt and trying to come up with some "options for change"? I really think your mother needs some outlets away from her family. You can't force her to take up "a hobby" but I'm sure you could accidentally introduce her to a little entertainment. Stuff like taking her to the theatre or a gallery and then giving her a Friends Membership for Christmas?

Secondly - as your Dc is getting older and less dependent, would it be possible, would you consider, trying again with the "lost" degree subject? Even part time? It would be good for you. It would underline to your DM that things can change, that you have your own mind and that it's never too late. (Is there any possibility that she might have lost academic yearnings herself??)

I realise she has not behaved well. But as she is already so unhappy I don't think taking a tough line will, by itself bring any improvement. I've heard the phrase "love bomb" a lot recently. Do you think she's worth it?

A friend of mine has this issue. I can only offer the hackneyed old advice that you can't change other people, only yourself. You can find ways of cutting short conversations that undermine you and making it clear that you aren't prepared to have them. You can ignore the sulking and refuse to engage in certain behaviours. Most importantly, you can work on not letting what she says affect your self esteem.

You are already doing a sensible thing by not going on holiday together, but I found it interesting that your main reservation was not putting your husband and daughter through the hell of it. What about you? You deserve a nice break without being nagged at as well! I almost wonder whether you'd benefit from seeing a counsellor/therapist and just talking rethinking where your boundaries with your mother lie and how you can enforce them.

Just to say finally that you sound like a kind person, and I hope you don't beat yourself up about a problem arising from your kindness. Also, don't assume that if you did hold the line more with your mum, that would necessarily be so awful for her - relationships are mysterious and it might even force her to change in positive ways - but ultimately, that is her problem, not yours.

Thanks everyone, good to hear your stories too. I don't think distancing myself from her physically is an option, she looks after DD a couple of days a week and they have a good relationship (DD funnily enough is the only one of us who takes her moods with a pinch of salt and gets away with pulling her up on behaviour). Plus she really isn't all bad, she really loves us and will do anything for us. I do however distance myself from her sulks and never indulge these by apologising or tiptoeing around. Occasionally we've 'fallen out' and afterwards she does try harder to modify her behaviour, unfortunately this never lasts long. She's not a hypochondriac although if she does have a cold or whatever we all know about it. She looks down on people with depression, counselling, etc as being weak and indulged so there is no way she'd want to explore anything there. She's also becoming increasingly daily mail (appreciate this infects many) and vocal when out and about about her intolerance for immigrants, benefits, etc. When I say this isn't acceptable and ask her to pipe down it's met with "I'm at the age where i say what I think". She's really quite intolerable at times. Interestingly her own parents were lovely people, very tolerant and happy types, albeit poor and in crap jobs as typical for working class back then. I've tried to assault her with kindness, taking her on holiday, she always comes with us on day trips, theatre etc but it doesn't help. Rather it increases her dependence and control of us. Hmm, not sure how to move forwards positively...

Oh dear.

You must find a solution to this. I hate the thought of your still middle aged mother sliding into deeper loneliness and misery. It's no way to live. Think how much happier she would be if she could embrace the idea of addressing her own emotional difficulties. And how miserable to live in the twenty first century and not enjoy the diversity it brings to life.

I am going to think hard on your behalf.....

Is she on Mnet? I guess not. (I am not suggesting she should ever see this thread.) She needs a powerful influence to neutralize the DFail poison.

I'm thinking your Dd might be the secret weapon. If you press on with the school plans your DM cannot help but become involved later on..... And having had your encouragement through her childhood your Dd will follow her own path and your DM will be forced to run to keep up.

My Mum is a bit like this too.

The hypochondria struck a chord with me and my Mum is very self obsessed and has zero self awareness but at the same time loves her children and grand children very much.

It's different for me because we live a long way away and most of our contact is on the phone. Last summer her selfish behaviour was driving me to distraction and I snapped. We had a very heated conversation on the phone and then didn't speak for 4 weeks. Then she rang out of the blue as if nothing had happened - I went along with this approach although I felt uncomfortable about the elephant in the room, but after a while I felt OK again especially as I realised she was actually making a huge effort.

She has continued to make a big effort ever since and our relationship now is so much better (from my point of view).

Anyway, the point of my rambling is to say that a frank conversation can work wonders. I doubt that I would ever have been able to work up the courage to start one off, ours was more of a row that just happened but if you can find a way to express your feelings then give her time to reflect maybe she might decide to make some changes to her attitude/behaviour herself. I agree with others, she clings to you and I'm sure would not risk cutting you off so you can I think afford to be a bit brave in raising your feelings with her.

Best of luck, if nothing else at least you can come on here and vent.

I will probably be way off but it probably has to be said.

The common thread here is that for most of the comments above the DM is a fundamental part of the childcare arrangements.

And therein lies the reason you still accept the behaviour on the most part. We all love our mums but when it becomes a matter shaping your life around their "traits" or pacifying them by changing your own life/education/future then surely that is the time to stop.

Also worth considering the burden and strain you put on them. If you find it hard to cope with your screaming cherub, imagine being 60, tired and dealing with it. They are human as well, and your fuse gets shorter as you get older. So maybe space also gives her are chance to experience only the fun parts of being 'Nana' and not see it as a chore. this manifests itself in treating you like a child.

Like a partner whom we love but brings out the worst in us, we need to give ourselves space and time away from them to become whole.

Would you take this from a Nanny that was giving you free childcare? No.

Love her, protect her but become independent of her or else you and she will not grow. (Oak that shadows the small tree thus preventing it from flourishing).

NB: this must only be done after all options have been exhausted.

Ofmiceandmen
My 'screaming cherub' is nearly ten so not really a burden comparable to a newborn and mum would be devastated if I stopped the child care arrangement. In many ways I think my daughter helps keep her from descending into a complete spiral of self pity and destructive thinking. But I take on board not allowing her to jeapordise and I'll make a concerted effort to stop responding to her demands (for that is what they are really although more subtle). Unfortunately my 18 year old self wasn't independent and confident enough to detach from her wants the way I can now.

My DM has tendencies like this (69 yo) but a couple of years ago gave herself a fright (drank too much at a family occasion due to self diagnosed depression & made a tit of herself!) and did some CBT.

Took up lots of voluntary activities as a result, made lots of new friends & reconnected with old ones and is a much much happier & more pleasant & positive person now.

I've found that standing up to her and pulling her up on unacceptable behaviour - quietly, or else jokingly so she doesn't lose face - worked best.

If she huffed I ignored it & continue on blithely with my normal life - this worked brilliantly while DD was little as DM realised she wouldn't therefore see DD unless she de-huffed & acted like a civilised person! Due to the CBT & improved social life she's much better now.

I like Something's suggestion re the membership - you & your aunt might have to go regularly with her to ensure she uses it (you could reduce the responsibility by alternating it) but it could start a good pattern for her?

Hmmm. Your mother likes to voice her opinions. And she likes to feel that she can influence events and people (who ought to be waiting for her to say what happens...) Yes?

Strikes me that (in addition to really excellent therapy) what she needs is someone who needs her. Bearing in mind that any plan you make for your Dd without her input will be seen as diminishing her position.

So. The cunning (and sadly rather complex and difficult) plan is to make a connection between your mother and someone who badly needs help. Perhaps a young person who could do with a little mentoring or taking out. (I haven't forgotten that she was not great in your own youth OP but she would probably be able to be less dogmatic with a stranger.)

I wouldn't be sure of how to do this. But I am certain that with your aunt's help you could find something - an organisation - that can facilitate adopt-a-granny type arrangements. What do you think?

If she is bad now, think how it will be in 20 years time.

You could be describing my mother, now 89. She has belittled me, not respected my choices and treated me like a cuckoo in the nest all my life.

I am 61 btw. I have never really been able to stand up to her, or express my feelings to her, because she has a way of stamping down any difference of. Opinion as soon as it starts.

Inmy case I have learnt to deal with it by not letting h push my buttons and physically distancing myself. I only see her 2 pr 3 times a year - I live on a Scottish island and use this as a reason for not getting down there much!

She is a sad, lonely woman. She has no friends because she relied on my father for everything and was vile to the one friend she did have. She too looks down on everyone and has always dismissed any suggestion as ' not my cup of tea'.

As a result she has no interests, hobbies or even ideas beyond bitching and of course it is too late now.

But your mother is still young enough to do anything! It would be a tragedy if she became like my DM.

Sorry about typos.

Kevin your thread makes me sad for you, as I see yougoing through what my DM goes through with my Granny. The difference is my Granny is now 89. You could have so many more years of this.

My DM isn't an only child but is the only one to live nearby. She has a terrible feeling of obligation, and guilt to do all that my Gran asks. She is becoming a martyr and I am very worried about her mental health.

My Gran will be very horrible and rude to my DM, but will never apologise. I want to help my Mum, but she is so fixated on doing what is right by an old lady, to the detriment of her own wellbeing. It really worries me.

They never apologise.

Never. :(

I wanted to say one more thing.

You say she loves looking after DD, and appears to find her only validation in so doing. But if DD is 10, in only a few years she will no longer need child care nor want to be 'minded' by her grandmother.

But meanwhile, your mother has invested all this emotional energy into that and nothing else.

What she be like when she no longer has that release? I would play this by saying thatDD is starting to want to do other stuff. Lie if necessary ( and subtly encourage DD in some activity or other). Use this as a way to suggest DM should think about the future.

I so wish my mother had even one interest. She won't even look at computers or the Internet despite us offering repeatedly to set her up.

Think about it - she will feed on you for emotional succour unless you are pro active now.

My DM share similar traits to all the DMs described above, especially Supertroopers: glass half empty, introvert, hard done by, never had enough going on in life, allowing overfocus on minor details, unable to praise, very narrow thinking about certain things, constant negativity... (yes there are good points but really they drown in the continuum of all of the above).

What I've now realised is that such people don't change because for change to happen, self-awareness is needed and it just isn't there. So OP and others, unfortunately nothing you do or say will persuade the person to change; that change has to come from within, from an awareness of the effect you have on others.

Also OP, I would be a lot more vocal and a lot clearer about what you will and won't tolerate. Have only one conversation about this, where you tell her how you feel and what way things are going to be, giving examples of her behaviour if necessary. None and I mean none of your decisions should be influenced by her, given what she is. If necessary, stop telling her things. Impress on her that there are certain conversational directions you won't tolerate and shut her down if she ignores that, either by leaving or by changing the subject. Keep doing that and she is likely to toe the line when she sees you won't put up with her behaviours any more.

It's an absolute pain to have to do it but the only way to deal with people like her is to manage them as you would a child.

Thanks everyone, it's really sad to hear all your similar stories. Encouraging that a couple of the mothers mentioned have made efforts to change their behaviours. I agree with hellototheno that it needs to come from the person though. There is no way my mum would respond to my setting her up with a person to mentor/care for and she would ridicule any type of club or organised activity. What I will try to do though is be clear that I won't be led down discussions I am not happy to have. I will make a real effort to do this with her. I will also be careful not to confide anything that might be used against me when it suits her argument and try and keep all conversations on a superficial level. I managed a small 'win' today when she started bitching about a mum from school putting her kids in kids clubs every day. I said breezily, well each to their own, i'm sure she has her reasons. This nipped the topic in the bud quite nicely without riling her.

Sounds scarily similar to my mother based on your op. Will read the rest of the thread and try to reply when not on my phone.

My only advice is to detach as much as you can. Some people on here are much kinder than I am. However, that might be because I have a mother who displays a lot of traits similar to yours, and then some. She is not officially diagnosed ( the very idea !), but I believe that my mother has Narcissistic Personality Disorder. A quick google might help you.

Your mum may not be as bad as that, but she sure as hell doesn't sound good. She will drain you and your family of all your energy, and, IMO, she will never change.

Oh, and have a look at the Stately Homes thread on here.

I learnt long ago that anything you say will be taken down and used against you!

I never discuss anything serious unless I have to.

The way forward here is to get her to realise herself that if she doesn't find new activities before she's to old she' ll be bored and dull.

She can't rely on the grandchildren for entertainment permanently.