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Relationships

Mumsnet has not checked the qualifications of anyone posting here. If you need help urgently or expert advice, please see our domestic violence webguide and/or relationships webguide. Many Mumsnetters experiencing domestic abuse have found this thread helpful: Listen up, everybody

Relationship crossroads. What to do?

33 replies

shandybass · 25/07/2013 21:17

I'm feeling at a crossroads. My dh and I have been married 9 years and have 3dcs, 7,4,1. He is a good man and will do anything for anyone and is generally sociable, kind and good company but not really towards me. He's never been very demonstrative and not one to chat. I like some quiet time and I'm quite independent so it seemed ok before. Now with the strains of a young family and lower tolerance levels on both sides I'm wondering what there is between us. We argue a lot, or rather I do and he just waits for me to get it out of my system and then carries on as before. I've threatened to leave but this evokes no reaction also. I'm not sure I want to leave more for the difficulties of being a single mother and because I took my vows seriously and because basically dh is a good man.
I've suggested counselling, he won't hear of it, thinks its humiliating and it's all my issue. Maybe it is I'm sure he'd be happy with a twice a week shag and a mother to his kids. I try but find it hard especially if we've been arguing. Friends have suggested time alone and a romantic night away, but the reality is that any time alone we have we just argue and it's easier when were both busy elsewhere.
As in child things I think will this period pass, is it just because the children are young or should I force the issue and risk my marriage?

OP posts:
Glenshee · 25/07/2013 21:28

Why not go to counseling on your own though?

CogitoErgoSometimes · 25/07/2013 21:29

You mention the 'strains of a young family' so are you losing your temper because of stress, fatigue, boredom that kind of thing? Are you principally trying to provoke a reaction by being aggressive?

Fraxinus · 25/07/2013 21:31

Have you ever had time off from the kids and away from home since the kids were born?

garlicagain · 25/07/2013 21:34

I'm sure he'd be happy with a twice a week shag and a mother to his kids ... any time alone we have we just argue

Oh, dear :(

Well, how do you feel about another 40 or 50 years in this relationship?

You said he's never been very demonstrative and not one to chat, even before the children came, so I feel it's unrealistic to expect a sudden change after your youngest starts school, or learns to drive, or finishes university, or whatever. It must be very dispiriting to see him being all companiable with other friends, if he can't be arsed with you.

The most generous light I can cast on this is that he's taking you for granted - did his dad treat his mother the same way? You may be able to shake him out of it. It'll take a very big scare, though - Relate, dear husband, or you're leaving?

tribpot · 25/07/2013 21:34

What kind of things are you arguing about? It certainly doesn't sound healthy that you're threatening to leave and he's stonewalling you, but there's not really a lot of information to go on in your post.

How much life do you have that's external to the family, compared to him? i.e. do you work or socialise with your own group of friends, or is your life very oriented towards your family? (There's no judgement intended in the questions, I'm just wondering if the problems in your home are more apparent to you because you're in it a great deal more - mentally if not physically).

Could you have counselling on your own? It sounds like it might help you to get some strategies for expressing your frustration that could be more productive, and less easy for him to dismiss as you just going off on one.

shandybass · 25/07/2013 21:58

I hadn't thought of counselling on my own, then is be the one humiliated going for marriage counselling on my own?!
Yes little things get to me which I would have easily tolerated pre kids. Like not consulting me over purchases, what he's doing, making plans rather than leaving things until last minute, not smiling or having a joke. All things which didn't bother me much before, I am pretty easy going generally, but with kids I like to be able to plan and make sure to pace myself and them.
Yes the crossroads is entirely because I'm not sure if this time will pass or whether it will stay like this or get worse over the next 40 or so years.
I just wish he would show some compassion and talk about these things rather than seeing everything as my issue. We're just getting more unkind towards each other.
I'm home at the moment on maternity but have a part time job which I'll be back to soon. I've always worked.

OP posts:
tribpot · 25/07/2013 23:17

You sound very disconnected from each other. And he doesn't sound like he's transitioned very well to family life. None of it sounds insurmountable, nor does it really explain why you're resorting to arguing to try and get through to him. Has he been like this in the whole 7 years since your oldest was born?

I can understand that you feel that going to counselling alone basically plays to his version of events, that this is all your issue and nothing to do with him. But if the choices are: seek help without him or don't seek help at all, I would certainly advocate some form of counselling for yourself.

I wonder if he is the sort of person - I am one - who can be extrovert outside the home but just needs downtime when at home. Of course, it would help if he would discuss this kind of question with you instead of just refusing to engage.

I think I would just tell him straight - you're considering whether or not your marriage has a future and, since you know he will not discuss it, you will be making the decision alone after you've had some constructive thinking time.

shandybass · 27/07/2013 08:32

Yes I think you have something there tripbot. I think I've changed since having the children as I will always put them first and absolutely adore them and being a Mum. Dh has pretty much stayed the same and sees the kids as more add ons and lives his life as he did.
I'm not sure why I just argue. I do try talking, but he just doesn't seem to get things. Even basic things like, if I say I'm tired he doesn't acknowledge me even if I say, I'm tired or the kids have been playing me up. He just carries on with no acknowledgement. I've even said please say something like oh have you had a bad day, or can I do something to help? It's hard to explain but I really try and d plain what I mean to him and then I get frustrated and he rolls his eyes and waits for my rant to be over and then says there's no point talking to me Because that's what I'm like.

OP posts:
garlicagain · 27/07/2013 09:28

Well, that's horrible imo. It sounds as though he's not considering you to be human! If you can't tell your partner you've had a hard day - and, at the very least, get 'heard' - then you're not exactly in a team, are you? And one might hope a man would be interested in his kids.

I think counselling for yourself will be helpful. Aside from everything else, people need to be listened to properly. You're not getting that at home; he claims to see it as a weakness Hmm So agree with him! You have got "issues", albeit not the way he means. You need an adult to talk with freely, since your partner isn't up to it. That's an issue.

Do you mind if I ask again, what was his parents' relationship like?

Fraxinus · 27/07/2013 10:14

Shandy bass, it sounds like it must be exhausting. Did he listen to you much before the kids?

Also can I ask again have you ever had time away from the kids and home since they were born? If he is not really engaging with you now you are a mother, perhaps spending some time together when you are not doing that role will allow the 2 of you to reconnect......

shandybass · 28/07/2013 21:19

Sorry I didn't answer everything. garlicagain I'm not sure firsthand what dhs' parents relationship was like as his dad had died before I met him, but I've gleaned that they were very happy. His dad would cook a fair bit and was good at practical things while his Mum is more outgoing and likes attention.
fraxinus no I haven't had some time away from my kids, mainly a night here and there with my girlfriends and once or twice a year with my dh. I don't really mind. As I say I'm happiest with my kids and I've been bfding them so it's not so easy to leave them when there's been ond under 1.
Yes garlicagain about your comments about being 'heard'. I've tried a lot to get dh to understand the way a sympathetic comment helps ir even a nod, but he just doesn't get it. I think it's his caveman thing.

OP posts:
Fraxinus · 28/07/2013 21:44

I'm not terribly interested in being away from the kids either, so I do understand. However it seems clear your relationship needs a shift, and I have found time together without the kids really useful in re establishing communication. Maybe it's worth a try?

newlifeforme · 28/07/2013 22:07

Does your dh show his anger? I'm just wondering if your dh is passive aggressive and is using stonewalling as way of punishing you.You react with anger due to the frustration and that proves to him how unreasonable you are so he doesn't need to respond to you.He wins, you don't get your response and he's able to blame you for being angry.If he has PA behaviour then the most effective approach is to observe rather than react to his responses.

It is entirely reasonable for you to expect compassion from your partner, its actually pretty important for our mental health to get positive strokes.You may however need help working out the causes of the emotional disconnection I.e has pressures of family life damaged the emotion connection or is your H unwilling or incapable of providing emotional support.Counselling will help you make sense of this and will provide some support which you are not getting from your H.

shandybass · 30/07/2013 06:56

Blimey I've researched a bit about passive aggressive and it is really ringing some bells which is frightening me. Dh does not respond, waits for me to get beyond and frustrated and then blames my behaviour for him not being able to respond.
The lack of emotion and compassion I have always taken as him being all masculine. It attracted me really that he was such a strong and reliable kinda figure and I always thought I'd be safe with him and he'd make a great Dad.
I remember being quite shocked by his lack of compassion, for example, when I was in labour tho'. It just seemed very mechanical to him and something he could do nothing about and was something I just had to get through. I remember wondering if it was me and would it be different for no 2 and 3 when I had more of an idea what to expect. Luckily no 2 and 3 were not so traumatic, but his lack of compassion and lack of connection were the same.
Also I remember being very shocked by his mum's behaviour after labour no 1. She walked in on me applying cream to my stitches and I asked her to leave quite sharply. She retreated to behind a half wall and was heard asking dh what was wrong with me? she was family?! It was me who ended up apologising for this and her reaction was one of we'll mention it no more, not oh I'm sorry too. The lack of sensitivity really shocked me.
Anyway I'm going on, but now it worries me what the future holds and what my children are experiencing.
The most I've seen my dh connecting was when he had a dog. Unfortunately he's not with us anymore, but it was quite warming to see my dh really care for him and show affection. With my dcs he tends to be more the disciplinarian although to be honest they only bother with him if I'm not around. It's a shame but I've tried to talk about counselling again and I can see that he won't have it and he thinks me going is a betrayal. I do try and talk to my friends which helps enormously. I'm not sure where I'd be without them or my dcs.

OP posts:
garlicagain · 30/07/2013 15:09

Dear me, Shandy, that sounds grim. It's kind of a bleak relationship, isn't it?

Interesting disrespect for boundaries from his mother. Perhaps, with an intrusive mother, he learned more about how to shut someone out than to build intimacy.

You can't re-do someone's childhood for them and, if stonewalling is his way, your question is really about whether to live with it - and force your children to live with it - or carry on without this granite obstacle in your lives. Some people have no need of everyday intimacy, for whatever reason, and can be happy in a 'parallel' marriage. I'm not one of them.

Are you not a little concerned about what your DC are learning about men & marriage from their parents? :(

shandybass · 30/07/2013 15:58

Yes garlicagain I am that's my dilemma. For myself I think I could fill my life with other stuff, everyday stuff and keep going, but the thought that my kids have a cold and distant Dad and what that means for them leaves me feeling sick. If I could shelter them maybe. It's difficult. Everyone of my family and most of my friends thinks the sun shines out of my dhs butt and thinks I'm so jammy because he does help out around the house and with the kids putting them to bed and things.
Maybe I should research passive aggressive a bit more for some self counselling.

OP posts:
Jan45 · 30/07/2013 16:05

It doesn't matter what your friends and family think, they don't have to livew ith him, we can all slap a smile on when need be. He is not listening to you, you sound extremely frustrated and no wonder, he either sits down and actually takes on board what you are saying or it's doomed, nothing will change.

hellsbellsmelons · 30/07/2013 16:09

I've threatened to leave but this evokes no reaction also.
Well it won't until you follow through.
It's an empty threat so he won't take any notice until you actually do do it!
It does sound awful for you though.
I wouldn't want that for the next 40 years of my life.
It's too short. Time for some tough decisions I think!

hellsbellsmelons · 30/07/2013 16:12

Oh yeah and...
I can see that he won't have it and he thinks me going is a betrayal
So what? It's not a betrayal.
He thinks it's you that has a problem so you have no reason not to go.
Does he always dictate like this and you just do as you're told?
If you think it will help you (and it sounds like it will - sound to me like you need it in fact) then go.

slipperySlip000 · 30/07/2013 16:21

shandybass I can very easily relate to your description of the reality and your expectations of your h as a family man/father.

Before I met my husband he was absolutely wonderful with other people's kids. When our own kids arrived, he was very much as you describe here, very disconnected, would only register the children's existence when they needed telling to quieten down or be corrected. Personally I embraced the new relationship with my kids although it was extremely hard and I deffo had PND when both were babies (no support from husband and crazy levels of sleep deprivation, my own mum died shortly before I had children). I breastfed the kids, was not interested in being away from them, but I desperately wanted h to have his own relationship with them and actively encouraged this. I was never controlling or bothered how he did things, just wanted him to take some initiative with them.

When my first was a baby we had this incident where I popped into the supermarket to buy a few things. I was gone twenty minutes, the baby was about six weeks old, with hubby, in the car park. Baby was having a good old sqwawk, a passer-by made a comment about baby perhaps needing a feed. This seemed to be a defining moment: hubby felt humiliated, shamed, angry and powerless to meet the needs of his own baby. His contributions as a supportive and involved father have been pretty inadequate ever since. This combined with the uphill struggle of daily low-level anger and me walking on eggshells.

Do you know what? Hubby is like his father! hubby's own father was physically, verbally and emotionally abusive to him, his brother and his mum. But this same man is very affectionate and loving towards his grandchildren, my kids. I don't know whether there is something in the relationship with men and their own kids, it is a very interesting concept.

I forgive myself for being disappointed with the way my husband coped (or didn't) with family life, I just couldn't see it coming. But our relationship deteriorated over the years from what you describe. I eventually checked out of a very long while ago for the purposes of self preservation. His barely-suppressed anger and the general sense of burden that would come with him having to 'look after his own chidren on his own' (I work 50% weekends) became intolerable and five weeks ago I left. It was not the end of the world, in fact I feel emotionally liberated 100%. Nobody died. The kids are fine. We have a long road ahead (sorting out practicalities) but I feel great.

Don't know what you should do but I would suggest finding a very, very very, good counsellor for you. Or look deep inside and ask yourself what it is you want from your relationship and consider how you can address the issues outright with your OH, or not, considering that there is the difficult issue of stonewalling/passive aggression impeding the communication.

shandybass · 30/07/2013 22:19

Thanks slipperyslip. How old are your dcs now and does your oh look after the children now since you separated?
I'm glad you made you're move. I'm not sure I'm ready for that yet. I want to make it work its just a shame dh doesn't seem to. Yes I know I should carry out my threat, but it's just not that easy and neither do I think it should be. This is why I think he should try but if course I can't make him that is abundantly clear.
My dcs never want to do anything with him and its really hard to step back and let him try when they're pleading with me sometimes. I would hate it so i do feel for him.
slippery that supermarket story is awful but how many times as a parent are we made to feel inadequate?

OP posts:
Isetan · 31/07/2013 02:47

Did he even want kids?

I think it's time you accept that this is who he is and always has been. You're expectations don't and have never matched the reality.

Do not underestimate the horror of growing up in a dysfunctional and EA relationship. When you brought children into this it stopped being about just the two of you.

Threatening to leave (with no intention of following through) to spark a reaction is at best pointless and at worse abusive. Your outbursts (however understandable) are part of the dysfunction your children are witnessing.

You can not change him and you are not responsible for his relationship with his children but you have a very big say in how much you expose you and your kids to. Bad relationships change who you are and not for the better.

I slept walked through a ten year relationship before having DD. All those negative character traits I too easily dismissed were exposed big time when confronted with the all consuming honour and responsibility of raising a child.

I think solo counselling is a very good idea. You are not powerless, you have choices and poor choices are still choices.

shandybass · 07/08/2013 23:37

Hi. We've had another big argument tonight. I was tired and he was as usual non verbal. I started trying to explain how it left me feeling and he exploded into a ball of fury saying nothing he can do is enough, he's treading on egg shells and that I should watch it because I'm pushing him to do something he will regret or do something to himself and he stormed off.
I had before this suggested counselling, and he's been scornful. I'd said what did he want for us to separate?
I'm not sure what's happening is this the beginning of the end? He called me spoilt. I'm going away with my girlfriends this weekend. It's going to be one hell of a counselling session or do I keep quiet and try and get some headspace.
Sorry this is disjointed. I'm upset.

OP posts:
Ikeameatballs · 07/08/2013 23:56

You say in your OP that your dh is "generally sociable, kind and good company".

I wonder if he manages superficial friendships quite well but struggles with the communication and intimacy of an marriage. You describe him as a rather functional/mechanical person rather than an expressive individual. Many people can do the "cocktail party chatter" much more successfully than they can make proper emotional connections.

How do you think he would have reacted if a friend or family member had said that they were tired? Would they have got a different response to you?

What is his previous relationship history? What about friendships?

shandybass · 08/08/2013 00:04

I'm not sure ikea, l

OP posts: