DW, marriage, communication, sex and stuff.

[Keepithidden]

Hello, I?ve posted in Dadsnet and Feminism already for advice regarding specific parts of my slightly dysfunctional marriage, so it?s time to bite the bullet and whack a post in relationships!

Bit of background, I?m male, DW and I have been married five years, together ten. Both mid 30?s, two DCs (2 and 4) and no sex life. I?ve considered and tried various anaphrodisiacs and been reading a lot about PIV/Feminism womens views of sex and got myself thoroughly paranoid about the number of women with disappointing sex lives and I think DW may be one of them.

I?ve tried to broach the subject a few times, but she says it?s tiredness/stress (understandable considering the young kids I suppose), I?ve asked whether she enjoys it when we do have sex, she says yes. I?ve even asked if she fakes it! She says no. Not sure whether I believe any of it because I know she wouldn?t want to hurt my feelings, and there does seem to be a big proportion of women out there who aren?t happy.

I help around the house as much as I can (still got to buy a copy of Wifework to make sure I?m covering all bases) and I think we split things pretty equally despite me being fulltime working and DW a SAHM. She has the option of lie-ins at weekends (but rarely takes them), I try to do all the kiddy stuff at weekends to give her a break and cooking/cleaning in evenings is my responsibility most of the time too (she tends to do most of the laundry and cooking for the kids).
So I suppose the question is, how long should I wait before putting an ultimatum/suggesting counselling/ending the Marriage? (rhetorical: I know only I can answer that) I love DW and would do anything for her (have considered chemical castration at times), but this is getting me down and I?ve started having slightly suicidal thoughts which I know isn?t healthy. The constant rejection I could cope with if I knew what the reason was. Could be a case that counselling for me is required.

I think it all started about 5 years ago when we were TTC, after 1 year DW became pregnant and morning sickness put a kibosh on any intimacy, a year later we DTD once and number two came along, again Morning Sickness meant a nine month break, BFing extended this and it all fell into a rut so we?ve only DTD six times in the past five years! Putting that down in writing is quite shocking.

Anyway, DW has issues with her body post pregnancy. I find her sexy and attractive, but my constant reassurances fall on deaf ears (haven?t seen her naked for five years either). I think she may need some help to improve her confidence as nothing I can say changes it a jot. Not sure on the best way to approach this one, so any words would of advice would be good. I think once she?s happy with herself then we can talk more about what she wants out of life and whether she even wants me in it.

Sorry, this post is all a bit disjointed and I?ve probably missed stuff out but it?s cathartic to get it down even if this gets no responses!

Sounds to me that you are spoiling your wife! YOU work full time and then come home and do the dinner? Look, having small children can be quite hectic but it is the easiest and most wonderful thing in the world and not difficult! She is a stay at home mom, lucky girl! I think she does need a kick up the bum personally, raising children ain't rocket science, some of us do it while keeping down a full time job! Stop pandering to her, man up and be a bit tougher, you may see a difference in her attitude!

Just spending time with DCs and not adults is not a good sign. She seems to have opted out of life. Being a dedicated mother is her be all and end all therefore how do you switch from that to sexual being, not easily.

I don't agree with AndreaDawn that being a SAHM is not difficult (sometimes it's a nightmare!), but I do think that, in this instance, your lack of sex life cannot be solved by helping around the house more than you already do. You need to carry on communicating to explore other issues. How are your serious chats going, OP?

Thanks Needsome, that's useful advice and something to be aware of.

Andrea - If being a SAHM is easy then my normal day job is a piece-of-pi**! Seriously, looking after them at the weekend, I know I couldn't do what DW does and remain sane. Probably why JustinBsMum suggests she's opted out of life. Being a SAHP would probably do that to me.

Tumble - Thanks for asking, the serious chats are ongoing. We're communicating a lot better and showing affection a lot more. So much so that we did manage to DTD over the weekend, admitedly it was at my instigation, but there certainly wasn't any reluctance from DW. Still got to work on her confidence and we need to communicate a lot more about intimate stuff (sex basically) both physical and emotional. So I figure it's a work in process and I'm not unaware that it could be a long process, possibly with the help of professionals (counselling) if I can persuade DW.

I'm glad the issue is coming to a conclusion.

Good progress OP

Thats wonderful progress OP im glad for you.

oh well done OP, I'm glad you are on the road to recovery!
all the best of luck!

What this thread (and others like it) indicate to me is what a wretched amount of misery is caused by the entirely unnatural cult of monogamy. Because monogamy is unnatural for human beings. If it was natural, it wouldn't need to be so brutally enforced, with so much propaganda and so many sanctions in place for people who breach it. If it wasn't for this cultural pressure to have sex only with the person you have had children with, a lot of people would be a lot happier: if the commitment of shared parenting wasn't expected to include (and even prioritise) a sexual/romantic relationship with the other parent, people could make arrangements which suited them so that the high-libido partner could seek other sexual partners and the low-libido partner would be free of the pressures and expectations to engage in sex that s/he had no real interest in. And all the time, both partners could enjoy and value the friendship and goodwill between them along with the commitment to parenthood without ending up in a situation where one partner is constantly unhappy and sexually frustrated and the other is unhappy due to an awareness that s/he should be engaging in unwanted sexual activity and/or engaging in sexual activity that has become a tedious, necessary chore.

And all the time, both partners could enjoy and value the friendship and goodwill between them along with the commitment to parenthood without ending up in a situation where one partner is constantly unhappy and sexually frustrated and the other is unhappy due to an awareness that s/he should be engaging in unwanted sexual activity and/or engaging in sexual activity that has become a tedious, necessary chore

This absolutely. I also think children unnecessarily suffer because if it was sold to children that mum and dad are great friends but not a couple/don't necessarily live together etc, it would be better for them in the long run than spending years trying to make a 'couple' relationship work when it patently isn't working (and children usually know this).

Good luck OP if this is the route you choose to go down. I would also say do try and develop an independent life of your own involving hobbies, other friends etc. This may give you a different perspective on life.

I do get the impression that Marriage and monogamy in general is being critically analysed more and more as time goes on. The ease of divorce and the regular chopping and changing of partners is no longer the taboo it once was. Interesting times.

DW and I both agree that if it came down to it, the DCs would be better off with two seperated, happy parents, rather than sticking together and being unhappy. This is as much for setting a good example of how relationships should be as it is about DW and my happiness.

Interesting last paragraph Helltotheno, we shouldn't be defined by our roles in life to the detriment of our personalities. It is so much easier to say/type that than to put it in to practive though...

YY Solid I so wish someone like you had been around when i was in my late teens.
I bought into the whole romance/happy ever after bullshit when i was younger. I dont believe in monogamy any more.
My expereience and reading of others expereiences has made me realise that marriage is about the ownership of women and controlling their sexuality.
Im shocked at how much my views have changed in the last few years At 40 i am not the same person i was at 25. Its like ive been two different people.
And i cant really articulate this very well but there is an undercurrent in society thats very Madonna/whore complex.
Why the need to oppress womens sexuality so much. Does it scare people or something a woman having or talking about her needs.
It is really fucking depressing.

^And i cant really articulate this very well but there is an undercurrent in society thats very Madonna/whore complex.
Why the need to oppress womens sexuality so much. Does it scare people or something a woman having or talking about her needs.
It is really fucking depressing.^

I read up a lot of stuff on this on the Radfem blogs, there's a lot of theories about it, but personally I think it all boils down to power and control.

Women have a power that men can't really empathise with: the power to create life, it's awe inspiring and bestowed on pretty much every women. Men can never own this power themselves so the next "best" thing is to control the owner. I also think that fear has a big part to play here, technology has provided techniques that could potentially make men obsolete, that's quite scary if you believe their only function is as a reproductive tool!

The alternative view seems to be that Men have the stronger, larger bodies and are more willing to use violence to atain their wants (I hesitate to use the word "needs"). This is thought by some to be a genetic predisposition, i.e. you have the Y chromomsome = you'll be more willing to use violence. Violence, or physical power, is the ultimate power when it comes to human-to-human relationships. The person more willing to use it is likely to be the controller in any given relationship (note I'm not just referring to sexuality here). Interestingly the technology I mentioned earlier has started to make things more equal in this arena too, a women can handle a weopan just the same as a man, particularly things like guns which require little physical strength.

Of course all these arguments have counter arguments and all are flawed. Historically a patriarchy has existed for millenia and it's going to take a long time to dismantle it all and rebuild a more equal society.

In a nutshell then, it's about who controls power, it's about historical inertia and ultimately it's about our (as a species) progress towards a civilised way of life. Hopefully that road is one one we've started on.

It is depressing though, I agree.

Sorry, my quotes marks didn't work.

I think that Solid is right.

Marriage works for some people, but it is sold as the only relationship structure in which a person can be happy/fulfilled.

Jealousy is one of the strongest emotions a person can feel.

In an ideal world a woman would have one man to help her raise the DC but she'd be able to have sex with other men.
A man would have one primary partner who's faithful, but he would be free to have sex with other women..

However as a result of the distractive nature of jealousy, marriage is the better option.
You both give up having sex with others so you can commit to one another.

Also virtually all the swingers I've met in real life are a little creepy.

Not everyone feels sexual jealousy, though. Just like not everyone feels sexual desire. And sometimes, feeling a strong emotion is a fault that needs to be overcome, not something to be proud of.

If you (hypothetical, general 'you') don't want to have sex with your official partner, it's actually unreasonable and selfish to object if your partner has sex with other people. What's so good about 'keeping' something you don't want for your exclusive use when you are not using it? If you have a child with another person, it's reasonable to expect that person to share the care of that child in every way, but not actually reasonable to obsess about owning the other parent as a sexual partner. It should be possible to enjoy co-parenting even when one co-parent is also a co-parent with someone else, in the same way that people who have more than one DC can love and honour and care for all the DC for who each one is, rather than prioritizing one of them.

KeepIt i agree More people seem to be questioning it now which is a good thing ...or at least a start.

Agree with Solid who has been very helpful to me on here over the past two years.

But it is more difficult for one person to raise a child - look at statistics re single mothers and poverty. I think we are right to challenge the stranglehold marriage has as 'only' way to be happy, but once children are involved there are different issues.

All the talk of owning another person is a bit of B.S tbh.

Wanting to be committed to my wife does not mean she owns me.
It means I want to commit to her and vice versa.

Not everyone feels sexual jealousy, though
The ones that don't feel sexual jealousy with generally experience emotional jealousy.

The line often used is "Im not jealous if the other person is better than me because I know we go home together" meaning there is a kind of emotional bond that keeps them together, jealousy will arise if that bond is threatened.

The 'open relationships' I have witnessed have all involved one partner who was really unhappy with other partner's activities but who put up with it so as not to lose them.

I think sexual, emotional jealousy or whatever you want to call it is very common if not our default position. I think true sexual freedom and lack of such feelings is very, very rare.

Spero: my point is that both parents raise the child, they just don't have a sexual/romantic relationship with each other. Are you trying to argue that men will only take an interest in raising their own children if the children's mother opens her legs regularly? Because that's nonsense. Separating parenthood from sex and romance would help get rid of a lot of the misery and idiocy around the monogamy cult.

Yes I think the main point here is not about where and how people get sex, it's about the possibility of entering into an amicable coparenting relationship without living together/having a sexual relationship and making that work, rather than spending years trying to get a relationship to fit a certain mould when that mould isn't and never will be available for that particular relationship. When you look at it objectively, what a waste of time and energy!

And yes that would involve a huge shift in societal thinking. As things are, there always has to be a 'bad guy'. For example, if the OP suggested a different arrangement to his wife and said he wanted to live separately and just coparent, he'd probably be painted as the 'bad guy' by all their mutual acquaintances, family etc for breaking up the family (only using your case as an example OP; the opposite could be the case also). That's so unjust but unfortunately it's also the reality because people don't seem willing to look at other more effective arrangements that work, and instead are happy to go with this half life where nobody is happy.

Spero: my point is that both parents raise the child, they just don't have a sexual/romantic relationship with each other

This is exactly my relationship with my sons' father. 50-50 split, all very amicable.

(Sadly I stayed in a relationship/married to him for x years before I realised the above was the best solution, where were you then, eh SGB? )

So now that the nest of vipers have worked out the third way for relationships, how do we sell it to the rest of society?