DW, marriage, communication, sex and stuff.

[Keepithidden]

Hello, I?ve posted in Dadsnet and Feminism already for advice regarding specific parts of my slightly dysfunctional marriage, so it?s time to bite the bullet and whack a post in relationships!

Bit of background, I?m male, DW and I have been married five years, together ten. Both mid 30?s, two DCs (2 and 4) and no sex life. I?ve considered and tried various anaphrodisiacs and been reading a lot about PIV/Feminism womens views of sex and got myself thoroughly paranoid about the number of women with disappointing sex lives and I think DW may be one of them.

I?ve tried to broach the subject a few times, but she says it?s tiredness/stress (understandable considering the young kids I suppose), I?ve asked whether she enjoys it when we do have sex, she says yes. I?ve even asked if she fakes it! She says no. Not sure whether I believe any of it because I know she wouldn?t want to hurt my feelings, and there does seem to be a big proportion of women out there who aren?t happy.

I help around the house as much as I can (still got to buy a copy of Wifework to make sure I?m covering all bases) and I think we split things pretty equally despite me being fulltime working and DW a SAHM. She has the option of lie-ins at weekends (but rarely takes them), I try to do all the kiddy stuff at weekends to give her a break and cooking/cleaning in evenings is my responsibility most of the time too (she tends to do most of the laundry and cooking for the kids).
So I suppose the question is, how long should I wait before putting an ultimatum/suggesting counselling/ending the Marriage? (rhetorical: I know only I can answer that) I love DW and would do anything for her (have considered chemical castration at times), but this is getting me down and I?ve started having slightly suicidal thoughts which I know isn?t healthy. The constant rejection I could cope with if I knew what the reason was. Could be a case that counselling for me is required.

I think it all started about 5 years ago when we were TTC, after 1 year DW became pregnant and morning sickness put a kibosh on any intimacy, a year later we DTD once and number two came along, again Morning Sickness meant a nine month break, BFing extended this and it all fell into a rut so we?ve only DTD six times in the past five years! Putting that down in writing is quite shocking.

Anyway, DW has issues with her body post pregnancy. I find her sexy and attractive, but my constant reassurances fall on deaf ears (haven?t seen her naked for five years either). I think she may need some help to improve her confidence as nothing I can say changes it a jot. Not sure on the best way to approach this one, so any words would of advice would be good. I think once she?s happy with herself then we can talk more about what she wants out of life and whether she even wants me in it.

Sorry, this post is all a bit disjointed and I?ve probably missed stuff out but it?s cathartic to get it down even if this gets no responses!

All okay thanks Buffy. Just checking out Amazon for flowery aprons. They've got a very impressive range, particularly taken by the RHS and V&A ones...

Sorry, getting sidetracked now. Just bracing myself for another chat with DW this evening (circumstances permitting) about our/my concerns. I asked her last week to think about what I'd said and hopefully she'll have done so, and be ready to speak to me about some of it (not going to kid myself that a week is all it'll take to undo the relationship we've found ourselves in).

Feeling slightly melancholy. DC's will banish that when I get home though!

Have been following this thread with interest.

Quick question to men: would you want to hear the full honest truth if it was something along the lines of 'I still love you but there's no lust factor/I don't get turned on by you'? What about if she did get turned on by fantasising about others? I think the drudgery of everyday life takes away the 'mystery' etc, all that stuff that the TED talk refers to which keeps the flame of desire burning.

Keepit - if you are going to talk, i think a good question for you to ask her is: 'what do you think I should do so that my basic sexual needs are met?' Doesn't matter all that much what she comes up with - as you say one conversation will not change much, at least not quickly - but this is the question that should make her think.

Dadissad yes i remember you talking about the cake. Its strange how parrallel some of these situations are I also agree Type 3.

Spero i see your James Masters and raise you Samuel West

Good luck with yr talk tonight Keepit.
Hope it goes well.

Well, useful perspective, Buffy. Maybe 'what do you think I should do in this situation?' - ?

That should be/sound more open - ?

Sounds as if she doesn't have contact with other adults. You don't mention her having friends for coffee even.
Not a good situation if that is the case.
I think someone asked if she could be depressed.

katie If the flame was there in the first place, then I believe it never dies. Instead of the flame that everyone can see, it turns into a slow burning amber that no one can see but I know its there.

I still love you but there's no lust factor/I don't get turned on by you'? What about if she did get turned on by fantasising about others

If I hear this then I would seriously consider going our separate ways and getting my needs met elsewhere.
Funny enough the thought of leaving and to get my needs met will probably reignite the flames than anything else, that's if something was there in the first place.

If she feels the need to tell me she fantasises about others then my answer would be "ditto"

But surely the issue here is not 'what do YOU think should be done to get my sexual needs met' but what are WE going to do about the fact that our relationship lacks affection and intimacy?

I agree, if anyone posed your question to me Glenshee, I would give them some massive side eye.

Not so sure about Samuel West tbh, but far be it from me to cast aspersions on what floats anyone else's boat!

Good luck op. tie on that flowery pinny and metaphoricaly gird your loins. If she loves you she will want to work with you to fix this.

Thanks for all the support, we tried to talk last night but were rudely interrupted by DCs suffering in the heat. At least its given me the opportunity to mull over the words of advice you've given me.

Katieks - I would want to know the truth, however painful and heartbreaking. At least then I could confront it and make plans. It's the limbo that wears a person down, always assuming the worst and hoping for the best. Unfortunately DW I think would try to sugar coat it, or not tell me if she thought it would hurt. She really dislikes conflict (to be fair I'm the same), despite the good that can often come from challenging yourself and others.

Buffy - I think she is feeling vulnerable, last week when we talked she jumped to the conclusion that we were over, which was something I really wanted to avoid. I need to learn how to stop her defences automatically coming up and be able to have a tough, but loving heart to heart about our feelings, wants and needs. I also don't think she is that aware of how I've been feeling these last eighteen months (the three/four years previous I could handle due to the pregnancies, young babies BFing etc. that usually limits sexual contact I understand, though not in all cases).

JustinsbsMum - you're right about the lack of contact with adults, I've encouraged her to go out with friends that she's met through the whole DC-thing, and friends she had previously (who have also had DCs, can't get away from them) but to little avail. I don't think she's spent a night/evening away from them, except with me a few weeks back, since they arrived on the scene. I suggested last night that she go out for a few drinks with one of DSs friends Mums (I'm happy to keep an eye on things at home for as long as she likes), but she rebuffed the idea. I don't think she's depressed, she's always been quite introverted: few, but very close friends that kind of thing. Friends do come over but nearly always with DCs in tow, I think she needs to rediscover her as a person, but every opportunity that crops up seems to present a problem. Could be the lack of self confidence again.

Spero - Those are pretty much the words I used previously. "We don't have any intimacy, we're friends rather than lovers and I think we need to work on our marriage and try to become husband an wife again" then I suggested counselling and other possible routes to a happier life. We have been showing each other more affection since the first talk, hugs, kisses, squeezing bums that kind of thing so maybe I'm pushing things too quickly, too soon by trying to engage in deep discussions so soon after the first.

Arsenal - Interesting immeadiate response to Katieks question, my first thought was "Okay, how do I reignite that lust in you? How do I turn you on again?" then, depending on the answer, I would go down the route you would.

Anyway, thanks again for all your support, it's helping me immensely (and hopefully a few others on this thread, and potentially many more lurkers!).

Keepithidden my mum does that. In my long blog post which i linked upthread i mention my parents.
She did similar to my dad and she also refuses to go out anywhere or do anything with my dad or to socialize with any of the friends that shes got left after refusing to see them for so long.
And then she blames my dad saying he doesnt take her out anywhere.
As i write this ive realised this is another instance of her gaslighting.

Hi OP. I've been reading this thread with interest since It started. I am in a marriage where, until a few weeks ago, my DH probably felt the same as you, to an extent. Our sexual relationship has been non-existent at times since our DD was born 5 years ago and he has approached me a couple of times to have the conversations you are now having with your wife. I wanted to post about how I was feeling and reacting, to maybe give you some insight into how your DW might feel.

The first thing I wanted to pick up on is, you've repeatedlyrebuffed the idea that she could be depressed. I really think you need to consider that again. 4 months ago my DH would have said exactly the same as you but it turns out I was actually very depressed but was also very good at keeping it hidden. The thing that prompted me to go to my GP was realising I no longer knew how to make myself happy, and in turn I could no longer make my DH happy. I've since started on a course of tablets which are helping to not feel so bleak.

I have also started investing in 'me' time. Before the tablets I wouldn't have considered this at all as an option and would regularly put obstacles in the way to getting out of the house on my own. There was an almost martyr like approach to my life where I would make it more difficult without even realising.

My DH was very hands on, doing the majority of the laundry, half the cooking, half the washing up etc. Yet I still felt put upon and taken for granted. I think that wouldn't have changed if it weren't for the tablets. Now, I go swimming twice a week, only for half an hour but with walking there and back it gets me out of the house for an hour, while DH spends time with DD and I also do a class one night a week, at something which I am surprisingly ok at. It's done wanders for my self esteem.

4 months ago I thought my marriage was over, that I didn't love my DH anymore, because if I did, surely I would want to have sex with him. Now tho, I can see I was putting enormous pressure on myself and not giving myself any sort of break. I feel better about myself, I feel less stressed and as a result I am starting to feel more ready to resume bedroom activities once more.

Of course, I am not saying that your DW must be depressed, but IQ wanted to share my experience with you. A lot of how you describe your SW rings true with me. The best thing you can do right now, in my opinion, is to give your wife the reassurance that she can talk to you, without you being hurt or upset (something I didn't feel I could do with my DH as I wa so scared if hurting him) and that you will support her, both emotionally and practically in what she wants to do next. It may take some time, but if she loves you I think there is still hope yet.

I'm happy to keep an eye on things at home for as long as she likes

Just an aside but wondered why you felt the need to point that out?

At a loss to understand why that comment provokes any special mention.

Darkest - I don't think DW gaslights me. There's never any blame/complaints about lack of company. I just think she may lack confidence to go out, and worries about DCs too much to leave them.

Needsome - She could be depressed, I'm not a medic so don't know about diagnosing it. Thanks for your words. What made you finally decide to seek help? Was it a decision you made or did DH persuade you? I'm really not sure where to start in persuading someone to seek help.

Numberlock - I don't know. What does it imply to you? In retrospect maybe it was a way to suggest that DW was under no obligation to return at any particular time. I.e. She could go out for a proper night out, get drunk, have fun away from DH, DCs and responsibility. Does that make sense?

KeepIt, it might just have been a turn of phrase but it was a bit like you'd be "babysitting" rather than "parenting", if you see the distinction?

Ah. Yes. Sorry, the implication being it's DW responsibility to keep an eye on things at home for the rest of the time, right? I could've phrased that better.

Oh KeepIt i didnt mean yr DW gaslights Sorry if it came across that way.
Its just that i realised it was another instance of my mum doing so and i realised while typing that post.

No worries Darkest, I'm glad the thread is bringing you some enlightenment.

But if one parent works outside the home and the other parent within it, the home inevitably becomes more the domain of the parent who spends more time there? Why is this evidence of unsexy patriarchal thinking from op?

He says his wife is 'anxious' about the children. S she is clearly contributing to this atmosphere.

But again, if she cannot say to him that she doesn't like his attitude, that isn't a good sign.

However there was nothing the op said that raised my hackles. Over thinking things can be as unproductive as failing to confront them.

We had tried to be intimate and once again it had all fizzled out to nothing happening. I felt angry and frustrated that i couldn't make my body work the way it's supposed to. Usually it would have resulted in a row between DH and me, but this time instead he just asked very gently if I was ok. That seemed to allow me to think about the answer rather than getting defensive about why things hadn't worked out. There were other factors contributing to my depression, and I had started to realise how I was living wasn't right. I think the conversation needs to be very supportive and non critical.