Talk to me about anger management for DH

[PuffDaddy]

DH has a foul temper. Very short fuse and can blow up over innocuous things - the traffic, my tone of voice, anything. I would say this anger surely stems from his daily use of marijuana. He disputes this and says he always had a short fuse. On the whole we have a good relationship but all too often we have a blazing row over...nothing and his reaction is disproportionate with the catalyst.

So this morning example, the buggy was in his way as he was trying to rush out the door to work so he started shouting and swearing. I told him his language was disgusting and this turned to me "f*ck you" etc. He has never been violent towards me but his rage is unpredictable and he can throw stuff, kick doors etc. His face contorts with anger and in those moments, I can't stand him.

Anyway I am sick of this - can anyone talk to me about anger management? Is it available on the NHS and does it work?

Oh Puff - your story is sadly identical to mine. Only difference is I'm 5 years into the relationship/marriage and only have 1 DS. I agree that the simple LTB is not always the simple answer. I have struggled for years now to try and modify DHs behaviour. I've managed to get him to stop smoking for a bit but he always goes back to it. He has been on antidepressants that have helped but its no way to live permanently. I guess my DH differs from yours in that he isn't a big personality that everyone likes to be around. Sure he can be charming and fun but he tends to alienate people because of his behaviour (although he's never so angry outside of the home - mine or his parents).

I am a strong willed person and therefore am not necessarily intimidated by his temper just sick to death of it. That's probably why I haven't LTB - no matter how much he yells, swears, throws things etc I don't feel scared or belittled - just pissed off that I have to deal with this out of control toddler.

The really sad thing is that I am watching my lovely, gentle DS (4) pick up on his dad's behaviour. Just this morning DH had a mini tantrum because someone pissed him off (he took it out on me of course) and left for work swearing and slamming the door. Later when DS didn't want to get dressed I left him and went outside - annoyed I didn't respond to his whining he came into the conservatory and slammed the door really loud. Of course I dealt with this little display but it did get me worried that DS is being taught how to behave badly when frustrated.

We have tried counselling but that did nothing to help as I think DH believes its not him its the world
however I am not giving up yet. I will find a way to get through to him and get him to stop smoking as I truly believe that this is the root of the problem (yes he gets angry but I think its the dope that makes his moods shift so much - we all get angry some times but those who aren't dependent on a drug are probably better able to cope with stress/anger and hence don't blow up).

As my next course of action I have printed out your post and I intent to show this (and the wise responses) to DH so that he can see what his behaviour looks like and how normal people respond to it. Wish me luck and good luck to you on your battle

Well, OP has her own journey to begin, the one about putting her children first. I thought that was what she was saying just now.

Jib, you are making a mistake and your own son's behaviour is reflecting that

You cannot "modify" someone else. You can only, as babyheave says, decide whether you will or will not live with it

You are giving him the message you will live with it

Expect nothing to change, except in the very short term

I actually don't think the OP is thinking about her own journey at the moment. She's as much in control of her journey as the horse is in charge of the man on its back.... ie. not at all. For whatever reason she thinks the future of herself and her children depends on her getting help for this man, not on striking out solo. The precedent is there. Two years ago her response to his unreasonable behaviour was to go to Relate... same belief that this can all be solved if he gets 'help' and that it's her responsibility to provide it.

In this scenario the abusive man with all his excuses, issues and neuroses is #1, the kids are probably #2 and the OP is running a very poor third to everyone else. Sad really but very common.

I am gobsmacked that women put up with such dreadful behaviour in a person who's supposed to be their partner. These men sound like your worst enemies. They sound like they don't respect or care for you- op and jib. Ltb is rarely easy but seriously why do you want to live with such angry selfish people? You seriously think you have the power and magic to change them? I'd be surprised if you do. I could be wrong but I think you are enabling not disabling their dreadful behaviours by putting up with it and suggesting you can change it, ie it's your responsibility

Your husband is loud and nasty, abusive to waiters - cunt. Your kids will grow up the same with this wanker as a role model. Depressing all round really.

Oh and the cannabis smoking is a complete red herring. Plenty of people smoke this stuff and, while it might turn them into tedious mong heads, it doesn't turn them into nasty, abusive, twats.

I have said it before and got slated for it, but anyway

I think there is a kernel of arrogance in some people that think they have the power to change someone else. The children are the ones that suffer in these kinds of fucked-up relationships.

Desert Island Discs guest this week, cognitive psychologist Steven Pinker, made the interesting comment that 'only a newly-wed believes that you can shape the personality of your spouse' but that how you treat them can affect the quality of the relationship. Taking that perspective, the OP is naive perhaps rather than arrogant. But if they continue to treat their partner as someone incapable of taking responsibility, the quality of their relationship will continue to get worse and worse.

don't get me wrong - I do realise that what im doing isn't right. But then again breaking up my DS's home isn't right either. he didn't do anything to deserve that and he does love his daddy. As adults I believe its our responsibility to sort things out and DH does want to - he is addicted to dope, just stopping is not that easy. He is my partner and I will try and help him for all our benefits (not indefinitely but i'm not ready to give up yet).
As for DS - he has a good role model and 99.9% of the time he follows positive behaviour (he is also only just 4 and a bit of a strop now and then is probably more to do with his age then anything else but I can assure you he wont be slamming any doors again!). DS is smart and kind hearted enough to know what's important in terms of behaviour and what is wrong.
I agree its wrong to put up with this but I did agree to good times and bad - I cant just chuck in a family because my partner needs help (which he does and anyone who things taking drugs is OK should join him on the help waiting line - and btw I used to do drugs but then I grew up!)

Enabling him isn't helping him, Jib

Like most addicts he has to lose everything before he will truly understand the risks he is taking with his family.

You are protecting him from that like he is a helpless child not in control of his own destiny. It does him no favours.

if the family is broken up, it will be his fault not yours

Jib

Children love parents, no matter how abusive they are. Your son would still be entitled to have a relationship with his dad post separation. You have not cause this relationship to fail - your H has by his actions and this is already busted.

Apart from enabling him (which btw will just prolong the agonies for you) what you have tried to date has simply not worked. You also sound codependent as well by thinking that you can still if you try hard enough get through the blockages into his head. Wrong on all counts there I am afraid. Your boundaries re your H are completely messed up.

Also your son is picking up on all this underlying tension between you and your H and is acting accordingly. I frankly do not believe you when you state your son has a good role model. No he does not if you are thinking of your H here. This is truly mixed up thinking on your part.

Codependents feel responsible for other people's feelings and problems
or blame their own on someone else.

A consequence of poor boundaries is that you react to everyone?s thoughts and feelings. If someone says something you disagree with, you either believe it or become defensive. You absorb their words, because there?s no boundary. With a boundary, you?d realize it was just their opinion and not a reflection of you and not feel threatened by disagreements.

Another effect of poor boundaries is that if someone else has a problem you want to help them to the point that you give up yourself. Its natural to feel empathy and sympathy for someone but codependent people start putting others ahead of themselves. Infact they need to help and may feel rejected if the other person does not want help. Moreover, they keep trying to help and fix this other person, even when the other person clearly is not taking their advice.

One of the problems people face in getting help for codependency is that they?re in denial about it, meaning that they don?t face their problem. Usually they think the problem is someone else or the situation. They either keep complaining or trying to fix the other person, or go from one relationship or job to another and never own up the fact that they have a problem. Codependents also deny their feelings and needs. Often, they don?t know what they?re feeling and are instead focused on what others are feeling. The same thing goes for their needs. They pay attention to other people?s needs and not their own. They might be in denial of their need for space and autonomy. Although some codependents seem needy, others act like they?re self-sufficient when it comes to needing help. They won?t reach out and have trouble receiving. They are in denial of their vulnerability and need for love and intimacy.

all valid points I must say. As for DS - I didn't mean DH being a good role model I meant everyone else in his life (I might be stubborn but im not stupid and I know DH isn't a good role model in the least). I'm not looking through rose tinted glasses at DS - he really is a kind, sensitive, caring, smart boy who is very focused on good behaviour (his own personality not through any action of ours). I appreciate how lucky I am to have him and that above all else I need to protect his innocent, kind heart.

As for co-dependency, I definitely don't react to DH words (couldn't care what he says really when he's in a mood) but i'll give you the point about wanting to help someone (don't think i'd ever give up on myself though as believe it or not looking out for DS and me is definitely my priority).
Stubbornly I will accept all your valid criticisms of my actions (and yes I do see that what I do enables DH) but I am not ready to give up yet.
I agree if we split it will be because of his choice to smoke dope not my fault bc I leave, but in the end we'll still have split up which is the part that I want to avoid if possible for DS, DH and me.

These boards don't always reflect the true nature of a relationship as lets face it we tend to focus on the stuff that's bothering us and not the good stuff. DH is a good partner for 80% of the time (its not that he's horrible 20% but I need to put a value to his dope smoking and add that to the moods somehow). I'm probably a pain to him for 20% of the time too. I'm not perfect either and i'm sure if he would be posting on a board about me he'd come up with loads of stuff that really annoy him.

All I really wanted to say to OP (as I didn't really mean to hijack her thread) is that I share her pain/frustration. Its up to her how she chooses to continue on her journey (as someone pointed out already) however she may benefit from hearing what someone else in a similar situation (but a bit further down the road) has been going through.

At this point all I know is that DH has to stop smoking dope and calm down if we are to have a long term future. Whether that will happen or not I cant say but I will keep trying until I no longer can

Jib, just out of interest, how come your DH gets to slam doors, yell, and behave appallingly, yet similar behaviour is clamped down on in your son? Do you not see the mindfuck for a child in that - his sense of normality and decency is being shaped negatively forever by living with a father like this, so he thinks that is an acceptable way to behave, and yet when he does it (a child who can barely control his own impulses), he is constrained and disciplined. He thinks Daddy's way is normal and right and you're not letting him do what he is being taught is normal for males. I read your posts justifying enabling your OH at the expense of your son and feel like pulling my hair out, I really do.

All the love and good parenting and role modelling from you and others is completely obscured and made irrelevant in the face of the effect of his father's appalling behaviour. No amount of good parenting can undo the damage done to a child nor prevent further damage from happening.

That goes for you too, OP.

Btw, also - to the OP and Jib: your efforts won't be perceived or remembered by your respective kids as a positive lesson in not giving up on people, they will form an unconscious belief that men can do whatever the fuck they want, treat people like shit and get away with it, whilst women have to tolerate it and take it.

he will totally blow his top when he perceives he has been slighted by others eg a surly waiter

There is every prospect this is a deep-seated character flaw made worse by weed, but not caused by it. So even if he did stop smoking, this behaviour could still be there.

Jib

You are stuck in the mires of co-dependency and the one who will ultimately be most hurt here by his parents dysfunctional marriage is your son. You cannot even begin to fully protect him from his dad and his associated weed smoking.

Your own poor boundaries re your H (again from being co-dependent) are causing you to make poor decisions; why can't you see this boat is sinking?.

OxfordBags you are spot on about the relationships that children see. They won't remember the '80% great', they'll absorb all the messages of '20% dreadful' and the massive double standards manifested in that. Yes, they will see that men can behave like shit and women have not only to take responsibility for causing such behaviour (hence eggshells) but they have to take it as well and then make everything better on top. Awful.

The whole scenario makes me shudder and this kind of abuse is genuinely mind-bending - it bent mine out of shape for a long while and its clear that some posters on here have gone into that blur of confusion. I understand and have huge sympathy, but Jib and OP - please get all your strength together and see it for what it is - abuse. Then get as much RL support as you possibly can and get these abusive men out of your home.

I don't suppose my children will ever thank me for kicking their dad out - but I will always know that it would have been far worse if he had stayed living with us. I feel confident they will grow up confident, self-assured and with all the benefits of the good role-models of friends and family that surround us. I may never have another relationship - who knows? - but at least I won't have one where they see me being emotionally terrorised by the man who is supposed to love me as well as them. That is what is terrifying and confusing for children.

Oh and the cannabis smoking is a complete red herring. Plenty of people smoke this stuff and, while it might turn them into tedious mong heads, it doesn't turn them into nasty, abusive, twats.

On that point I'd disagree. Yes, some people are tedious mong-heads but for others it affects their behaviour. I'd get "But even you say I'm nicer when I'm stoned" but that was because the moment he wasn't stoned he was a shit. Since DH stopped smoking he's not thrown furniture around, shouted and ranted at me or the children and, in short, has stopped being an utter dick head.

Now it may well be that for some folk their OH's will carry on being nasty even after they stopped smoking - in which case you have to deal with that then - but in some cases its the actual problem.

Puff daddy Its such a hard decition and depending on your own strength it's down to what you can and will put up with. It's a long process as you find yourself making so many excuses because u don't want to give up. We have been forced into this section by thier actions so it's very dinars especially when u have children. Maybe it takes leaving someone to make them see the error of thier ways and if not then what can we do!! Like people say above its not our problem and I for one can't take it anymore. I'm going to speak to him tonight and tell him, tried this
Morning but he kept telling me to go away and that he was busy!

Meant to say good luck golfpro - it is such a hard decision esp when children are so young. It was the same for me and it made me feel that others would think I hadn't tried enough because my two were under 4 when I finally took action. But a) other people didn't have to live like I did and b)I did absolutely everything I could think of to make it work. Finally I realised the only thing that would stop him being vicious/unkind/undermining/callous to me was for him not to live with us. It takes a while to understand that is the only way to make it stop. He is still vicious, nasty, bitter etc, but it is not my life anymore.

Ladies I appreciate your advice I really do. Please dot take my responses as dismissing your valid points. What I tried to say before is that posts like this tend to provide a skewed perspective of a situation. There is no denying my dh is moody and can be an arse (don't get me started on the weed but he isn't allowed to smoke it in the house nor when ds is awake not that that makes his night smoking outside any better) but he is not abusive. I do not feel terrorised, I definitely dot walk on eggshells around him and very rarely does ds witness dhs moods (I'd say once every few months at most). When we argue its not around ds - it's either at work (we have our own business) or outside at night when ds is asleep. And even though dh starts it I am by no means covering from him and will pull him up on bad behaviour. I just want to make this point because I do see a difference between someone being and arse and a bully.
Yes even seeing it rarely is too much for ds and that's why I'm not saying ill never leave but right now I don't believe that that would be the best solution for everyone.
Not all women in a relationship with someone who has anger problems are abussed. Not all children seeing a parent get angry are scarred. Ds knows bad behaviour is bad but he also knows that if he is naughty or does something wrong he will be told off but I will still love him and forgive him. Maybe as he gets older this may change and if I ever see his behaviour changing for the worse I will need to make big changes to ensure he doesn't follow in dhs footsteps. But I have hope that our family can sort this out.
Finally, my parents are very different in their personality/reactions to situations (neither angry nor violent). I watched them deal with stress differently as a child and I have become just like one of them but not the other. Not sure what point I'm trying to make with that other than my ds' life isn't necessarily lost just bc his dad has anger issues.

Just wanted to clarify a few points. I run anger management courses for the NHS. They are based on CBT and teach skills such as using distraction, breathing/relaxation/mindfulness, checking in and monitoring anger throughout the day, cognitive restructuring etc. They also look at personal rules/core beliefs that make people more prone to anger - including unrelenting standards and entitlement schemas. There is also a big focus on assertive communication which is very important as often people with anger issues haven't learned how to get their needs met any other way, and think they are being assertive when they are in fact being aggressive.

What Ehric is describing sounds more like emotion regulation/DBT skills - which is aimed more at people with BPD. This is slightly different from anger management - I run both. So the answer to your question about whether it's available on the NHS is yes, depending on where you live.

Also, it is difficult to say how much impact his cannabis dependency has on his anger. Obviously the smart thing to do would be to quit for a month and see what happens - but he needs to want to do this for himself.

But the point someone made about MH services or counsellors not working with him if he was smoking weed is total rubbish - we don't exclude anyone for this reason. We support people to make the right choices for them, don't believe that he can't get help because of his weed smoking - that is unhelpful and incorrect.

Consider for a minute that you are wrong re your H and that he acts like this too because he can.

How many more years are you prepared to waste by trying to modify your DHs behaviour?. In the meantime your son is learning from the two of you as to how relationships are conducted. Trying to change one of your own behaviours is difficult enough, trying to change someone else's is impossible. You've already tried for five years and he's not listening to your entreaties or pleas. You feel like all co-dependents do in such situations - rejected. You want to fix this (another codependent trait) but surely you accept too that he has to put serious legwork in as well without any input in that process from you.

What you have tried to date has not worked because at heart he's not bothered about what you think or feel. He gets what he wants out of this relationship and is happy with the way things are/ You've become conditioned to hearing his emotional crap he metes out towards you along with his weed smoking, this is why you are not cowered by it, well on the surface anyway.