DP and DS keep having big temper-losing fights

[AuroraAlfresco]

(I didn't get much response to this in Parenting and it's fallen off the page ; hope ok to post here as well ...)

I can't see any end to their problems and I fear it's only going to get worse. DS is 8. I don't have the same problems with him at all. It's 90% the way DP is that causes DS to react badly to him, become stubborn, not want to cooperate for him.

DP will come home from work, I'll listen to his interaction with the DC, and maybe the first 5 things he says will be ever so slightly sarky ... subtle put-downs ...smart arse retorts to them (particularly DS1). It's so clear to me that this is why DS1 reacts badly and I just want to scream at DP "Why can't you just fucking well TALK NORMALLY to them!" It's as though he always feels he has to be keeping them in line ... casting a slight eye of suspicion over them as if they've done something wrong. I am so sick of it.

If I try and talk to him about it he complains that I am attacking him. So I don't know where to go from here. He's the only one that can change the way he is. But he puts it largely down to DS having an obstinate personality.

I'm fairly sure the reason behind it is that he dislikes himself a lot, so maybe feels he has to take it out on his DS to sabotage their relationship as a self-fulfilling prophecy. I don't know, maybe I'm wrong.

I would love any thoughts. I'm really not sure what I'm looking for and I know some people may tell me just to leave him ... it's possibly at the end of the tunnel, but anything more constructive that that would be good too. Thank you (I might not be able to reply till the morning but I'm not abandoning the thread!.

Oops, ignore the last sentence of that!

That sounds hard...would he be open to the idea of you both attending parenting classes? If you spin it as both of you brushing up your skills, he might feel less attacked and find it less threatening.

Woah. That sounds really unfair to DS and red flags are waving. (Especially the "feeling attacked" when you try to discuss it) I'm not going to say LTB straight off but in any case it doesn't sound healthy.

Is he DS' father or is he stepfather? Is he like this with others or is it just DS? Was his own father like this and what is his relationship with him? Does he often try to shut down discussion if it's something he doesn't want to hear? Do you think he might respond to an article about talking to children positively in order to increase their self esteem (and/or about how sarcasm and put downs have a negative effect).

Why are you standing by while this man abuses your kids ?

They are not having "fights" as that implies a level ground

Your h is abusing your son. He is systematically trying to break his self confidence and spirit

He is just a child, and any grown man that did that to my child would be out on his ear

What the hell are you playing at ?

Well yes, all of that too. He doesn't sound like he likes your DS (or you) very much at all.

btw, the reason I can be so clear about what your h is doing to your son is because I was that child

and my damaged teenage years are testament to that

It isn't a fight.
Your DP is picking on your son in a determined and systematic way.
It's bullying and nasty and I wouldn't be pondering what was happening - it would stop or DP would find himself with another adult to deal with.

Stand in font of your son and protect him from this. It's horrible.

I'm sorry to say I agree with the others.

It is abuse.

I was in a similar situation with an ex. He always told me he loved both my children but his actions showed otherwise.

He would constantly make sarcastic put downs and little digs, then when my son inevitably got angry and retaliated he'd tell him "Don't talk to me like that little boy"

I soon realised who the real "little boy" was and dumped him sharpish!

Why are you together at all?.

And where are you and what are you doing when he starts on your DS?.

Your man's inherent low self worth is not your son's problem to have to take on.

He and your son are not fighting. This man is actively abusing your son and is likely enjoying the power and control he has in your house of horrors. I make no apologies for calling your home that; it is certainly not the sanctuary that it should be for your son - or you for that matter.

Is your son his bio child?. Some stepfathers (certainly not all stepfathers) actually detest other men's children. This man may well fall into that category.

Who is more important ultimately - your son or this bloke you've shackled yourself currently to. You need to look at your own self here very closely.

It is abuse and bullying.

Your DP is an inadequate man, who likes to put down those around him in order to briefly feel superior. A bully, in other words.

All the hallmarks are there:

• subtle put-downs
• If I try and talk to him about it he complains that I am attacking him
• he puts it largely down to DS having an obstinate personality ( = blaming another for his own behaviour)
• the reason behind it is that he dislikes himself a lot, so maybe feels he has to take it out on his DS

The only construcrtive thing you can do is ask him to leave. If he wants to fix himself, he can. But he can do that AWAY from his child until he has learned NOT TO ABUSE HIM.

(Unlikely, by the way. His type do not take responsibility for their own behaviour, which makes real change impossible.)

Your responsibility is to keep him away from your son so that he ceases damaging him.

Like AF, I was also that child. The enduring effects last a lifetime.

Protect your son.

I agree with the others, totally.

Your poor little boy

I sadly agree with all the others. Please don't be tempted to turn a blind eye and think that it is not that bad. I went through this with my mum, whilst my dad stood idlely by. The damage that this sort of continuous bullying has on a childs self-esteem is huge.

I am 35 now and have felt the lasting effects of this my whole life. I have recently cut off all contact with my mum because i am sick of the abuse. My dad has taken her side as always. Please protect your son from this. If you stand by and do nothing he will hold you accountable in years to come.

I hear what you're all saying. I really do. And I agree that I need to change things. But to try and explain, it's often immensely subtle, what goes on. It doesn't sound like someone "starting on" my DS, Attila. He doesn't suddenly go in screeching and shouting abuse. He's DS's bio father, yes. And yes, he had a crap relationship with his own father and they're not in contact any more. He is on the waiting list for counselling atm. So that's something.

Your man's inherent low self worth is not your son's problem to have to take on. Yes, I totally agree.

I am trying to think of a typical example. DS will maybe say something like: "There's a big space in that corner of the garden - did you cut down a tree?" and DP would come back with "What, have you only just noticed that?"/ "Is that the first time you've noticed that?" DS just then gets crestfallen. Taken by itself it sounds trivial, but with an accumulation of little things like that, DS undoubtedly gets resentful, which turns into uncooperative when DP is trying to put him to bed, say. DS will angle for more time playing outside, or just flat out refuse to get dressed for bed, and the trouble escalates from there.

Please can you give me some suggestions on how to deal with a response like that from DP. How precisely would you deal with hearing the example above? (I'm not being sarky, I really would like to hear the exact ways you would go about it.) Humour does seem to work a little bit ... if I say something like "Is your name [firstname] SARCASTIC [secondname] today?", he will have a little jolt and apologise.

He will minimise examples like the one above. And then what can I do? Me: "It knocks his self-esteem, saying something dismissive like that."
Him: "It's just a figure of speech/only a joke. It's not exactly scarring him for life."
Me: "How do you know, getting stuff like that dripped into him all the time"
Him: "Don't be ridiculous, you're way over-sensitive"

etc etc etc. It's just I'm right/no, I'm right/no, I'm right ... how can I get through to him that it's SERIOUS, when he just plays it down? He genuinely, genuinely doesn't realise and I don't know how to make him. Even if we split up he'd be forever thinking that I reacted way over the top.

Could you try
' we need to talk about the way you talk to ds. If you love him (and I am sure you do) then you will put aside your dislike of having your behaviour challenged and you will not waste both our time by denying it. When do you want to do that - now or tonight?
We need to find a solution because I will not tolerate your endless low level sneering at him. How do you want to approach this'

If that did work I would ditch the sarcasm and instead of you ' mr bloody sarcastic' jibe I would just confront it IN FRONT OF YOUR DS every time he did it

Ds : there's a big space in the corner of the garden...
DP : did you really only just notice that
You : is there any reaon why you couldn't just answer DS rather than that childish and rather rude response? Do you not think manners and kindness are a good thing to use when we are all supposed to love each other?

I would do that every single time

X-posted

The 'it's just a phrase/you are over sensitive' would get
' I am not doing this with you. It's bloody childish and hurtful and if you continue to do it all you are saying to me and your child is that your shitty attitude is more important than us.

Plus I would start calling him Mr Crapface and tell him he is just being over sensitive when he objects

Oh Pag. That's the exact kind of thing that I want to say. Thank you so much, you've bloody made me blub.

Just not so sure about raising it in front of DS though ... do you think that's ok? I've always tried to protect him from conflict between us and if I did give that - perfectly reasonable - response, I feel it would give DP carte blanche to crank up the argument, then blame it on me for having "started" it ...

Please can you give me some suggestions on how to deal with a response like that from DP

"DP, leave this house until you are willing to treat people with the respect they deserve."

If you DON'T do it in front of your DS, you are telling him that you think his father's behaviour is ok. He needs to know that his feelings are valid.

I truly don't get this 'don't contradict in front of the children'. If my DH is being an arse to the DSs I will call him on it straight away.

I think it is ok to say it in front of DS if you have had the first convo Pag suggested ie you have warned DH that you are not going to ignore the behaviournany longer.

I also think it is ok because it is a powerful message to send to your DS, communicating that you will stick up for him etc.

That said, if it escalates into a full on screaming match then best to walk away.

I also think it is ok because it is a powerful message to send to your DS, communicating that you will stick up for him etc.

Yes, I know, I know, thank you. Things are going to change. Thank you. It's amazing how just a couple of posts from you lot have made me feel so much more empowered.

Fwiw I think you should but I understand it's difficult.

If I can bore you -

Ds1 is 10 years older than DD and was just snipping at her the whole time, exactly like you DP .
I tried and tried to talk to him but he kind of rolled his eyes because he was happy to think I was being over protective. Eventually I sat then down - we did a family chat - and I said what I posted above.
But I massively milked it and said 'look at her . She adores you and what you do with that is throw it back at her just to make yourself feel clever for five seconds'
Anyway. The good thing was that it was absoloutely out in the open. He had to face us knowing that we all knew what he was doing even if he brushed it off. And more importantly DD knew it was not ok - that it was him being shitty and not her being worthless. It meant if he did it again she knew that the adults thought it was childish, unnecessary and everything to do with him being a twat and not about her at all.

It is her home. Home is where you should be safe from sneering and mockery.

It stopped immediately and I think the fact that he coukdn't brush it off or pretend it was nothing made a difference.

But but but - ds was 17. The situation with a DP is obviously totally different so only you can judge iyswim.

It's not your job to train another grown-up how to behave. You can't make him see your point of view, or be a better person. It's a hiding to nothing, frankly. The man you describe is just going to react with anger, deflection, blame, and denial to your attempts anyway.

It is your job to protect your child.

X-posted.

Good luck op. it's horrible but it does almost become background noise until we suddenly realise its a habit and needs to change x