opting in or out of large groups

[pillowcase]

Not sure if this really should go into relationships, but couldn't see where else to put it.

I'm a very shy person but I've forced myself my whole life to join in and try to overcome my dislike of being in large groups. I've always had several close friends and am great on a one-to-one basis, but as soon as I'm in a larger group I just shut up and listen. People like me! On sports teams, in an orchestra, I participate, I laugh at the jokes but I don't talk.

Recently I realised that I just don't like these situations and shouldn't have to force myself anymore. I like my own company. I've decided to opt out of a couple of things where I'm just not comfortable.

So, having finally decided this, I find an essay from my 12 yo in her room (she loves writing and this was in the form of a screenplay with her as one character) where the other characters all talk about how quiet, reserved she is and how she doesn't participate in things.

So now I'm afraid if I retreat further, she will too. Any advice. I can see that all my active participation hasn't made her outgoing anyway. How can I encourage her,, or should I bother? should I just let her decide to be an introvert from an early age?

thanks for any comments

might be helpful if you could work out what it is you don't like about the situations(maybe with the help of a counsellor) and then you would be in a better position to understand. I don't know what to advise about dd, I can't imagine how hard it would be if she was forced to do things she wasn't happy with , but again you need to know why. If its just that she isn't interested enough to want to or whether it is from a place of insecurity or fear in which case she may need support to overcome the fears. Sorry I can't be more helpxx

cjel thanks for replying

DD does lots of activities and enjoys each, but like me, I think she sits and smiles when they're not actually doing activity, instead of taking part in the general chat. I attend orchestra with her and we both just sit and smile and listen when we're not actually playing. I hate when I have to speak in front of the group, but that's partly because it's a foreign lang for me so I hear my accent and prefer not to speak. For her, she hasn't got that problem but she just sits quietly.

I suppose I don't know if it's a problem or not. For me, I think I'd just like to retreat into myself as I've tried long enough, but for her, I think she should try even if it makes her feel uncomfortable.

Maybe I should have asked the question: what do you think when a member of your schoolclass/orchestra/sports team doesn't chat? Do they make you feel uncomfortable?

its really hard isn't it? she may not be finding it hard at all it could be you projecting your feelings on to her. I have found recently( in the last two years after being married to a man who always held court everywhere he went and no one had a good time unless he was talking )that i really enjoy trying to get to know the quiet people and do worry a bit if they are not talking that something is wrong, but think if its in a group like you describe i am sure there are people like my ex who love the sound of thier own voices.
If you see her genuinely smiling and happy with the situation she may not be feeling like you at all. Has she shown signs that are making you concerned?

thanks cjel

Yeah I am probably projecting. I think she sees loud-mouthed people as annoying and only speaks when she has somethign to say.

I think i'm going to have to speak to her about it, without drawing attn to it as if it's a negative thing.

It's been good writing it out. thanks for listening!

I'm probably not qualified to respond because I'm an extrovert (born that way, folks). Believe me, extroverts don't have it easy, either. It's not necessarily plain social sailing at all !

imo kids pick up the subtext much more loudly. eg if you were forcing yourself to go to those events under sufference 'for your daughter', she would've known on some level that it was torture for you (or, at least, uncomfortable and you weren't suited to it). I would be more concerned at you not accepting who you are, and what that says to her. I speak as an extrovert who can worry I'm ungainly, socially insensitive etc - see, it's not simple! It all takes courage.

I'm also concerned to hear you referring negatively to your accent. I'm not buttering you up in saying that I find foreign accents very attractive. I am also impressed and grateful someone has gone to the effort of learning my language. Hand on heart, this is how I feel.

If the activity makes you uncomfortable, then why do it? Or are you doing it for your DD and are happy that she enjoys it and benefits from it?

Years ago I read this description of a character in a work of fiction: "Outsider though he was, he would rather be out of it in a crowd than out of it altogether" and I felt that summed me up. Does it sum you up? Or your daughter? It's not something I would actually own up to in real life I have to say!
Definitely have an exploratory chat with your daughter. She may actually be happy with who she is. Only speaking when she has something too say sounds very mature to me.

Your daughter sounds very perceptive. She probably knows and understands the situation you both find yourselves in only too well. There is a book called Party of One by Anneli Rufus which I would urge you to get. It will be a revelation to both of you and a great help in understanding how introverts can exist happily in a world full of extroverts. The key thing to understand is that you cant make yourself into something youre not. It will only end up with you both living an inauthentic life and causing confusion among people around you. I am much happier now that i fully accept my introvert nature.

It may be quite liberating for your daughter to see you happy accepting your status as an introvert. As Springy and Frosty say, she's probably picking up your discomfort anyway.

The extroverts are probably too busy talking to even realize that you are not.

As an introvert, I completely understand you. There used to be a support thread for us on here, it's disappeared, shocker!
It's ok not to be the centre of attention, it's ok not to want to be in a crowd. A an introvert, I gain my energy from being alone, which I then choose to expend for very short times in large groups.
Enjoy your aloneness, and your daughters, and be thankful you are not trying to be something you are not.

thanks everyone for thoughts

Frostybean, I'll take a look at that book, thanks

I generally go to activities because I want to (like the music/sport etc) but stop eventually because of the social side (eg a group I'm in had an end of year party, everyone brings a dish etc, and I just decided not to go even though I normally would and then stand looking(feeling) like an idiot)

on the accent thing:
this does make both dd and I self-conscious; we're English speaking in France where everyone is Learning English, so when we speak to each other in Eng, we always get people listening in trying to see if they understand. Or saying 'I don't understand anything'. Both DD and I rarely speak to each other in company. (i have another English friend who told me she feels like this too)
When I speak French in a large group, I'm often asked to repeat myself and then I get totally self-conscious (my French is perfectly adequate and comprehensible when one to one, I think I just lower my voice and mutter in company)

springytate,
I think that a lot of extroverts are not really extrovert but are putting on a front (in the same way I'm pretending I'm happy to go along and sit without speaking for 2 hours). In a way I think part of society is holding your tongue (thinking of work situations here) and not acting exactly how you feel like acting.

catsandtheirpizza
accepting who i am as an introvert or just being a recluse?

frostybean,
can I ask you what you changed when you say you fully accept your introvert nature? Are there situations you avoid because you're not good in company?
(I won't enjoy my kids' end of year parties in school but I think I should go despite how I feel. Where do you draw the line?)

The extroverts are probably too busy talking to even realize that you are not

Ouch.

As for the french, they can be such snobs don't you think? (or have I traded one insult for another )

Extrovert/introvert = roll of the dice. You can be a sensitive and unconfident introvert OR extrovert. As for the end of year party, perhaps go but don't stay until the bitter end? Or ask your kids if they want you there?

Not sure OP - just being happy in your own skin, whatever form takes, would be great for your daughter I think (and you, of course).

Re 'I think that a lot of extroverts are not really extrovert but are putting on a front' - absolutely - when you consider introversion/extroversion is on a normal distribution curve, there have got to be a lot of people faking it.

I'm somewhere halfway between an introvert and an extrovert I think. But I often find introverts more interesting than extroverts. When they speak they usually have got something to say, and when they open up it's real. I married someone who's confidently introvert, if that makes sense, and one of my DCs is def. an introvert too. I too can find large group events boring, unless the group is large enough for there to develop several small group or 1-2-1 conversations.

Maybe forcing yourself to go to events that are really not your thing is not the right way to go and like a PP suggested may even give the wrong message to your daughter, that these things have to be suffered because society expects us to.

You sound interesting btw, I'd probably want to talk to you at a large group event

thanks biscuitsareme

springytate no I don't feel it's a snob thing, I would be in the same situation in an Eng-speaking group, it's just that the lang is an extra difficulty (or maybe excuse)

yes, I want to be happy in my own skin. Society does dictate a bit though. I've volunteered to accompany school kids to pool today for example. I'll feel a bit uncomfortable because I hate making smalltalk with other parents I don't really know, esp when I'm feeling responsible for not letting kids drown (!) so I'll probably just stay in my area and say nothing. But, I do feel it's good to volunteer for these things cause someone has to.

so it's the balance bet doing what I'm comfortable with (staying at home all day) and getting out there becasue that's what you have to do to be part of society

OP you and DD should read this book - it was a revelation to me. If you have a Kindle you can get the free sample, which was enough to make the scales fall from my eyes.

www.amazon.co.uk/Quiet-power-introverts-world-talking/dp/0141029196/ref=sr_1_1?s=books&ie=UTF8&qid=1371115017&sr=1-1&keywords=quiet

thanks jazzdalek that looks really interesting.

a case of accepting rather than retreating, makes me more hopeful for my Dd, will read this

Pillowcase, firstly, that book on the power of introverts recommended by Jazz is great. I have that (and loads of others).
In answer to your questions:

1. can I ask you what you changed when you say you fully accept your introvert nature?

A. I stopped being inauthentic and trying to act like an extrovert (being outgoing, chatty, inquisitive, going out and socialising a lot, joining clubs and groups). I started living life the way I wanted to. The way that made me happy. I would turn down invitations where I felt I'd be uncomfortable but I'd always tell the host why so that they weren't offended. I stopped going to bars, clubs, noisy pubs, group meetings, parties etc.. and instead did the things which made me happy (and therefore good company) such as bike riding, walking, cinema, art classes, quiet pubs/country pubs, dog walking, site seeing, antique fairs.

1. Are there situations you avoid because you're not good in company?

(I won't enjoy my kids' end of year parties in school but I think I should go despite how I feel. Where do you draw the line?). I don't have children of my own but DP has a son and daughter just into teens so that limits what we do with them. We go to sports events at school and plays/dances but I don't tend to mind these things as long as there's something to do / watch and I'm not just sitting there expected to talk all day/night. I avoid parties like the plague (any kind - children's or adult's) as for me, that's hell. I also avoid networking events at work which does limit me but I'm happy not being noticed. I often used to find that people were offended when I turned down invitations as to them, I seemed an outgoing type. I was confusing people. I hope this helps you and good luck. Please read the books suggested above - they will open your eyes and make you happier and able to accept who you are.

Biscuitsareme - 'I'm somewhere halfway between an introvert and an extrovert ' - there's a term - ambivert.

'But I often find introverts more interesting than extroverts. When they speak they usually have got something to say, and when they open up it's real' I agree. I always think that in a professional situation, if you have two people of the same grade, one introvert, one extrovert, I'd take notice of the introvert because I'd think they must have been technically really good to get there without the benefits of being an extrovert.

I'm not a 'proper' introvert, but I'm on the introverted side of ambivert and find very extroverted people quite irritating sometimes, whereas when I was younger, I would have been in awe of them.

There was a big flurry of articles in the press a while back about the value of introverts in the workplace and elsewhere. But of course because it was being driven by introverts who were probably unwilling to beat their chests, it all died down ...

Hi pillowcase
I have a question of my own for you if you don't mind, since I've been thinking about it lately.
I know a lady who like you doesn't do small talk, doesn't talk at events etc, but appears friendly/smiles. (She walks my dd to school with her own sometimes).

I would like to be friends with her cos she seems lovely. But since she doesn't do small talk, i don't know how to start! If someone started asking about things / trying to make conversation would it annoy you/ be umcomfortable?
I am not particularly loud but the only way i know to start getting to know someone is through chit chat at first.

Would you feel uncomfortable if someone just asked you to do something together?

Appreciate any advice!

Hmm, I can relate to this. I am always tongue-tied in new situations involving big groups of people, ie starting a new job. In my first term at drama school I was utterly miserable, as it was basically a big old showbiz extravaganza with the extroverts competing to see who could shout the loudest. As you can probably tell I find extroverts rather irritating....
However....once I'd settled in and got used to people I was fine. Is that true of you maybe? Is it just that you don't ever have enough time to get used to new social dynamics?

Another interesting point is that although I would describe myself as shy and introverted, when I tell people this they usually laugh. It is a lot to do with perception. And I am very often drawn to introverts socially.

ephemeralfairy people who don't know me well also think I 'must' be an extrovert because of how I look. For the record, I am fairly tall with broad shoulders and big boobs so my physical presence is imposing (don't laugh) and I've also got blonde hair, blue eyes and lots of white teeth and a wide smile too so I tend to get shoved into the 'bimbo' category (or I did do when I was younger, sadly, not now I'm old!) I have also had jobs in the past where I've had to approach people and so, have had to learn how to do that confidently and easily. All that gives the impression of extroversion. People make sweeping instant judgements based purely on the physical but let's face it, how else do we judge people quickly? It's natural. It's very hard when your physical presence doesn't match your personality.

frostybean and ephemeralfairy,
your comments about seeming to be the outgoing type strikes a chord with me today. A woman who I know a little told me today that I always appear in good humour. That makes me laugh. I feel like I'm smiling to hide the embarrassment at commenting on the weather... yet again. But it proves that what people see doesn't necessarily show what I'm feeling Inside.

biscuitsareme,
about introverts being more interesting than extrov. How can we tell, esp if some extrov are just putting on a face to avoid looking like an introv. I do sometimes feel that I have something interesting to contribute but people don't have the attention-span to listen right to the end. I feel like I need to condense my comment into 17 syllables in order to be heard. Probably why I don't bother sometimes.

barnet,
absolutely love when people are direct - but not pushy. I also know that I should do this myself, actually broach a real subject but I hate when I try and they return a vacant stare. If you'd like to get to know this person I recommend you start with something normal weather/the children etc and then ask directly if they like X activity/if they've ever done it/been there. (Get me! giving that advice when I'd never do it myself!)

'Is it just that you don't ever have enough time to get used to new social dynamics?'
ephemeralfairy,
in fact I think it's the opposite. I bide my time in a new situation giving people the benefit of the doubt for years, until I finally decide that there are only 3 people in the group I really want to spend time with. I'd love to have the courage to see them individually but don't.

wow didn't mean to write an essay. I'm chattier in writing than speaking!

Thanks pillowcase. You've really got me thinking now about extrovs and introvs and i realised that i find quieter people much less draining, but always feel as though you're supposed to be able to chat (even if its about nothing). From what you said i just realised that doing something with / alongside someone is much stronger than the same chat for a few mins every so often. Mmm food for thought thank you!

Another vote here for the brilliant "Quiet". I also recommend "The Introvert Advantage" which, if I remember rightly, includes a chapter on the way the brains of introverts and extroverts work (there is actually a difference). Both have helped (lil old introverted) me accept aspects of myself I used to really struggle with. The true definition of an introvert is simply that energy is focused on the inner world.

Also, look at the Myers Briggs Type Indicator (www.myersbriggs.org) and take the questionnaire. It is a brilliantly helpful tool for understanding personality type (including introversion). Your daughter can take it too. Helping her understand herself at this early stage is an amazing gift - she is lucky to have you!!

hilbobaggins, thanks. Didn't expect pouring my heart out about my timidity would make me feel good about myself!

Question for any introv. who feel comfortable in their skins now: Do you still dread going some places? Do you avoid some events? Or do you just go an be yourself and not care about how you appear to others?

In a way I wish I could still attend these things without feeling like an idiot. I know a man in orchestra who remains very quiet and just gets on with the music but every now and then he says one thing that always seems funnier because it comes from him (quiet, reserved). I'd love to be like him. Would love to chat to him about this topic but wouldn't dare (he mightn't thank me for thinking it of him)