Mother encouraging dd to kick the cat

[ItCameFromOuterSpace]

I want sure whether to post here or parenting.

Mother used to look after dd while I went to work FT. It did not work at all, she found it very difficult and our previously extremely good relationship essentially fell apart. I don't want to go too much into it as it was a very distressing time, but she wished my current baby would miscarry (am currently 30weeks pg), and would say things like no one gave a sh*t about my pregnancy and hoped my organs would burst inside me.

It was at truly awful awful time, I would leave dd and go to work in floods of tears, and pick her up to be met with more abuse.

Have no idea why my previously Very good relationship with my mother became like this, but she said she felt I was too involved with her looking after my daughter (I said I would like it if she tried to take dd out everyday if possible - when they were both well, and not adverse weather) even if it was just for a walk for fresh air for 10-15 mins etc.

She said she would only take dd out once a week maybe and would feed her whatever she wanted (I always cooked meals and give them to her), and would change her clothes etc.

Anyway, she used to get very frustrated with dd at times and would often shout SHUT UP!! At her. I begged her not to speak to my daughter like this 1. Because I don't want my daughter being shouted at to shut up and 2. Because I didn't want her picking up that kind of language at tat age (she ws between 13-16months when she as looking after her).

Dd would then start shouting shut up to anyone including strangers.

Mother would also encourage her to kick our elderly cat, which she found vey amusing. I repeatedly asked her not to do this because I didn't want her learning this kids of behaviour, we want her to be kind to animals and others, and also as we have a newborn arriving soon, we are trying to get dd to be kind to the cat (nice strokes, cuddles etc) to encourage her to treat the baby nicely.

In the end, we put dd in nursery and she loves it. Mother however, still insists on teaching dd to kick the cat and generally be nasty to him.

I don't know what to do, we didn't speak for almost 2 months and have just started speaking again - she refused to apologise for what she said to me about miscarriage etc, but has no reluctantly said sorry as dh said he would cut her out our lives if she continued this abuse.

Everytime she sees dd she tells her to kick the cat, pull his tail etc. what can I do? I have asked her not to, and she does it anyway. Dd had a lovely calm and sweet temperament but is only 18 months and very impressionable.

Does it sound like I am overreacting or being unreasonable in anyway? Should I let my mother talk to her grand daughter as she wants? Is it harmless?

mother has told me that dd is not mine and belongs to the world and I should stop acting like she is "mine" as such.

This only started 5 months ago? And it came on very suddenly? I have no idea how you broach this subject, but sudden personality changes really should be seen by a GP. It is very possible she has no real idea that she is acting strangely and has changed, so you need to find an appropriate time to raise the possibility with her. Brain tumours, head injuries and strokes can have these odd symptoms, as can significant mental illness. I know this is not the help that you came looking for, but if there is an issue, it just might make you feel better about her, and your new, unwelcome relationship.

As to whether your DD should have any contact with her? Well right now, no. It is your over-riding responsibility to protect your daughter and yourself. YANBU in trying to protect your daughter (and your cat!) Her behaviour is abnormal not only for her personally, but it is also outside normal social conventions.

Sorry...not the answer you wanted....

^this is pretty much exactly what I was going to post.

Is it at all possible to write a letter to her gp, I wonder? It does sound odd that she has changed so suddenly and drastically. If not, and I agree that restricting contact with yourself and cutting it with your daughter for now seems sensible, can you sit down and talk with her about why you are doing it and your concerns, or even write her a letter explaining in full why you are taking these steps? And ask her to go to the gp as you are very surprised and concerned at the change. Maybe if you catch her when she's being more sensible you could suggest accompanying her to the gp.

It may be as said that a mixture of her daughter having children, retiring, moving etc has triggered something. I know that some people get depressed when they retire, for instance.

It started from a huge row we had when she started saying she wasn't planning on taking dd out the house ever, maybe one a week, maybe once a fortnight, and I said that I felt this was incredibly unfair for dd as she needs to get the house to socialise and get fresh air etc, and I wasn't asking her to even take her to toddler groups, just for a walk etc. the row got worse and worse and I said I regretted letting her look after dd.

That's when she started saying all the nasty things about my pregnancy, organs etc.

Relations was awful for months and then finally one day she refused to look after dd when I dropped her off ready to go to work. She said unless I apologised to her and thanked her two to three times a day for looking after dd (please bare in mind I lost count how many times I thanked her for looking after dd but it got to a point where this should be given now), then she would close the door on us.

I just flipped, left and put dd in nursery starting the next day, we were incredible lucky there was a FT space for her in the nursery nearby.

She says very strange things like "if I find out I have cancer etc, I would rather die than get treatment to spite you" I got so angry one day and said "GOOD!" Which I regretted but who talks like this?

I don't think it's a brain tumour type thing, but think the possibility for some kind of breakdown could be very real.

I feel so hurt and even after she's said these horrendous things to me and dumped us in it re: childcare when she had the flu I still went round and looked after her. When I collapsed in the street from a vommitting bug I had, she didn't even call to check on me.

Sorry for the venting ladies, like I said apart from DH and my best friend I've kept this to myself these las few months and been very upset about it.

Thank you all for your advice and support.

OuterSpace , are you sure that your mother was always wonderful and supportive until 5 months ago?

Because what you describe is a perfect example of a toxic parent, and the fact that you even ask this in your OP: Does it sound like I am overreacting or being unreasonable in anyway? Should I let my mother talk to her grand daughter as she wants? Is it harmless? makes you sound like the perfect example of the child of a toxic parent.

That is to say: I think she was always a self-absorbed and inadequate parent, and you reacted like most children of such parents by putting her on a pedestal and feeling like you must be the one at fault. But your daughter changed the situation: you were suddenly more willing to question your mother's behaviour, and be protective of your DD in a way that you were never willing to be for yourself, and meanwhile your mother, like most toxic parents, may have felt threatened by the place that your DD and your pregnancy were taking in your life, and is acting out worse than she did before, such as by saying horrendous things about your pregnancy in order to hurt you and "put you back in your place" (in her worldview).

Does this sound at all plausible?

I really recommend you take a look at the links in the first post of the Stately Homes thread, and see if any of them apply to your situation.

Maybe you only noticed her behaviour when you saw it in relation to your child.

She does sound like she is disturbed, and in your position, I would cut her out. But, if you don't want to do that then you do need to get through to her somehow - have you tried pointing out that if DD hurts the catm the cat could react by hurting her? Scramming or biting in self defence. If she cares about DD that might be enough to stop her.
HotDamn makes very good points. Is your sister similar to your mother in character traits? Does your sister have children?

She sounds unhinged.
Cut ties now. Before she does more damage.

No, this is not normal, harmless or okay or any other thoughts you may have had.

You seriously need to cut this woman out of your life for good.

The nursery will not like it if your child starts telling other kids/adults to shut up or kicks them. A certain amount of misbehaviour is normal in toddlers but your child is being told to do something by someone she thinks she should listen too.

Just cut her out. She brings nothing to your life and while it must be shit to lose your mum you must put your baby first.

Christ on a bike - i thought my mother was difficult!! I make a lot of excuses for my mother's behaviour as there are health reasons for it, but i don't care how ill she is, if she EVER said those things you describe in your OP, it would have been the last time she saw me, and my children again. That is just horrible.

The only thing i can think that might be going on here is some form of dementia. It doesn't sound like depression although she sounds depressed, i believe the depression could be coming from that. She took on the task of looking after your DD, couldn't cope and got frustrated wiht herself. Because YOU asked her to do this, you are the obvious scapegoat - you are the one that made her ill by asking for this. Im not saying that is the case but this is how she sees it in her warped mind.

If this was my mother i would try to persuade her to see a doctor to be assessed for dementia and if it turned out that this isn't the case, absolutely cut contact, you don't need that sort of toxicity in your life.

The only reason i mention the dementia is that my dad had alzheimers and it totally changed his personality, in his case not until the disease was quite advance but he said some awful things to my DD. If you knew my dad and how much he adored my DD you would know it was the illness and not him. Such a shame.

If she genuinely was entirely nice and normal before this, then there is no question that she is now unwell and needs help. To fixate on the cat in this way is not just unpleasant, it is also totally bizarre. As is wishing your "organs explode". I mean, it's not very likely, is it? Really strange and graphic imagery for her to use. Did she talk like this before - not about you - but use strange, graphic images to express strong emotions?

The other possibility which occurs to me, is could it be some type of substance abuse?

Either way, if you love her then I think you should try to help her if you can. (Of course, keeping your daughter safe has to come before this). I think it might help to keep in mind that this is not the mother you know and love talking, it is someone who, for some reason, must be very unwell and in desperate need of help.

Your mother has been through a lot of life changes at the same time, moving house, giving up work, becoming a grandmother and full time carer for her DGD. If anything was going to tip her over the edge to possible break down it could be all that. Or it could just be she doesn't like her new life (even though she picked it) anywhere as much as she thought she would and is taking it out on you/DD.

A lot of people who work full time think they are going to love their retirement. A lot of people who are becoming grandparents think they'd love to have full time care of their grandchildren, but the reality is that going from full time work to being at home all day is a major change that not everyone settles well into. And remembering those pre-school years with your own DCs with rose tinted glasses is very different to the reality of actually doing it all - not just the fun playing bit, whilst being old and having a fraction of the energy she had when she was a young mum herself.

There is also an element that she has gone from being the mum to you being the mum, she's the gran.

It does sound like she's blaming you and has got angry and cross at you because she doesn't like her life. but it's not your fault.

With my mum, a lot of her craziness was always there, but with me working full time and her working full time and still being the child in the relationship (not 'the mum' and her 'the gran'), I was more tolerant of it. It only became something I realised I didn't have to apease her anymore.

Cut your mum out, tell her you find her behavoiur unacceptable if she wants back in, she can stop behaving like that. remember, you are now at a stage that she gets more out of this than you, she walks away, she doesn't get to have a relationship with her child or grandchild. You can refuse to let her back in to your family unless it's on your terms, and teaching your child to be cruel to animals is a clear sign she is not a good influence on her, so why have someone in your DD's life who isn't a good influence?

I think HotDAMN has nailed it here. The difficulty for you is in working out whether your mother is/has been for longer than you suspect, a toxic parent or whether this is a medical issue in the way others have raised. Either way this is incredibly painful for you. I take the point that it is something that should be checked out by a medical professional, though I would still say that you have to protect yourself first and foremost, and that definitely means removing your DD from any influence your mother can have while she is behaving like this.

It says something to me that the situation with your mother insisting on doing bizarre things while caring for your DD went on for as long as it did. I don't mean that to sound unduly critical, so sorry if it does, but it strikes me that in being so reluctant to remove your DD from her care and in feeling so guilty about voicing your concerns and then actually moving her, you seem to feel that you have done a terrible thing in questioning your mother (as opposed to thinking primarily 'this is not good enough for my DD') and have kept reverting to the idea that it must be you and that you are the problem in seeing it the way you do. Now, that suggests to me that you have been well trained to see your mother as always right, as someone who must always be pleased, pandered to and agreed with whatever they do, whereas you are the person in the wrong even when you are being reasonable. That makes me wonder whether your mother has actually had the makings of a toxic parent for longer than this, but has 'trained' you not to see it.

I really don't wish to offend with any of the above, but your reluctance to find fault with your mother's behaviour when it's so odd does make me wonder about some of this. I agree with HotDAMN that it would be worth exploring the Stately Homes threads to get advice from others with difficult parents.

Surely she has had a breakdown or has developed some other mental-health issue.

Or, possibly, she was never quite as great as you say and you've only realised it properly now for whatever reason.

For me, kicking and mistreating a pet would be enough to make me cut ties, never mind the vile things she's said about your pregnancy and her other disturbing behaviour.

I might suggest trying, from a distance, to get her some medical help (I've no idea how or if you can, sorry) but otherwise withdrawing contact now. For the sake of you, your daughter and the cat.

Another one saying consider the possibility of a new, physically based, brain problem.

There are lots of different dementias and tumour/stroke things which can have very confusing effects especially, with something progressive, in the early stages. I met DPs Mum in the early stages of her vascular dementia and she was a very gentle shy and loving person. Now sadly the progression of the illness means she has moments of extreme distress and anger when she is verbally and physically aggressive including to her very dear children and grandchildren. DP also tells me his Dad had a fairly sudden complete personality change as a result of a brain tumour.

On a less dramatic note my own Mum was quite peculiar when affected by a UTI, fortunately resolved with antibiotics.

If you don't know who to talk to perhaps start with your GP or phoning the alzheimers helpline even if you don't suspect alzheimers they know about all sorts of dementia and more usefully what you can do if you are worried someone else has an illness they can't recognise in themselves.

Good luck xx

Thank you all everyone, you've made some really good points. dontmind I think you may have hit the mail on the head with her not liking the life she has made for herself thing - she used to spend the last 2 years counting down to retirement, then when it happened, and she sold the family home, no work anymore and minding dd FT while I was at work (she insisted on this btw, I actually wanted to out dd in nursery 2 days a week to get her to socialise, have fun and give mother a break but her word were unless I look after her FT I'm not doing it at all. She was somehow offended that I even suggested nursery), everything seemed to have changed.

I know it seems like excuses, but genuinely we were ver very close, I had a good childhood and she always supported me in everything. But everything changed when dd came along, it's like she didn't like the fact that she couldn't control everything anymore. She had a tough childhood, crap marriage and tough life so learned to be vey self sufficient quickly, but I also a strong person and I don't want my dd seeing me as weak in anyway, so perhaps she didn't like it when she wasn't the one calling the shots and making my parenting decisions for me.

All of a sudden I was the one deciding how I would raise my daughter, she made me give up BFIng before I was ready, made me feel it was silly an watery because didn't didn't BF, told me I was starving dd because I didn't want to wean until 6 months - ended up doing it earlier at 5.5months to appease her. Things like that. I guess it escaped even more when she got control of dd and looked after her 5 days a week.

When I used to pick her up from work, I felt like a massive intruder, ESP when my sister would be there to see dd - despite not having contact with me. I would be made to feel like I was taking away "their" baby instead of my own daughter.

My sister incidentally has a 14 year old, so mother has long been a grandmother. I am 15 years younger than sister and 8 years younger than my two brothers so maybe being he youngest has been a factor as well.

It feel good to be able to talk all this through, really appreciate it.

I think you are making excuses for her and are being too charitable re her poor life choices. A lot of people make those and do not act as your mother has done. However, she made those bad life choices for herself, you are not responsible for her being this way. I would hazard a guess she has some form of untreated and untreatable personality disorder.

The sentence, "she did not like the fact that she could not control everything any more" is pretty much damming actually as to her nature.

I would cut her off pronto and without delay; she is teaching your DD lessons in animal cruelty. You cannot and should not stand for this. Also if she is too difficult for you to deal with, then she is certainly too toxic for your defenceless and vulnerable child.

she made me give up BFIng before I was ready... ended up doing it earlier at 5.5months to appease her

How does she have this power over you, OuterSpace?

I maintain that you are far more under her control than you are perhaps willing to realise yet. Only when 2 adults are in a dysfunctional relationship does one feel the need to "appease" the other. And this was something pretty major: the way your baby daughter was fed.

she didn't like it when she wasn't the one calling the shots

I'll bet.

You're going to have your work cut out for you sticking to your own guns, after a lifetime of acquiescing to this woman (eg. you wanted DD in nursery 2 days a week, she reacted with offence so you folded... are you really as "strong" as you believe, or has your mother made a habit of portraying you as headstrong whenever you dare think differently to her?).

Erm, no I don't think you are being unreasonable at all. She sounds weird. I would back away just to make sure DD doesn't grow up with screwed ideals.

Reading your second post it's obvious she feels redundant. She's doing anything she can to still have control. I would tell her straight that she won't be in your lives if she carries on as she is and ask her to tell you about how she's feeling to make her behave this way. I think she needs an ear.

I think the posters saying things about health are wise too. Maybe a micro stroke, or onset of Alzheimer's? Talk to her doctor perhaps and explain the personality change. It seems quite marked given what you say about your childhood.

To be frank, when you say that her attitude to you changed when you were first pregnant, I can't help being reminded of all the times that a partner has started or escalated abuse during a first pregnancy.

I think she was perfect when you did everything her way, and now you're seeing her truer colours.

Sorry.

Your mother sounds extremely unwell and I would not be letting my child within a million miles of her.
Poor cat!

Could your mother have always been a toxic person? Whilst she had your full attention and could control you, you were meeting all her needs and so she had no need to rage against you. She had no cause to let the facade she's built for herself slip.

Is it possible she has used triangulation to keep you and your sister apart so that you couldn't unite against her. Having a golden child (a best friend daughter who can do no wrong) and a scapegoat child (who can do no right) is par for the course for a toxic parent. A good question to ask yourself is "did I always fail to see any value in my sister?" If so, why? Was that thought put there by your mother?

Then your DD arrives, you have a glorious new focus. Your Mum loses your undivided attention, you have strong priorities and total commitment to your daughter which make you strong and you resist your mother as never before. At the same time the full wallop of what it really means to be a mother hits you...you see first hand the need to protect, love, enable your daughter....and you start to notice when your Mum treats you less well than that.

You didn't notice your real mother before, because you'd been groomed from birth to adore her. Your DH seems less accepting of her and to have more clearly defined boundaries when it comes to her....could that be because he didn't have the grooming you've had? Ask him if she's newly like this.....or if she's just got worse recently.

When adult children of toxic parents realise the truth they often describe it as "a light bulb moment." Suddenly everything is clear and the shock is that all those little things that seemed "off" "hurtful" "manipulative - but surely not, she's my mum" are actually attributable to the fact that the parent has and always has had a personality disorder.

If it's a sudden and drastic change of personality, as your first post seemed to indicate, I'd strongly suspect a developing neurological problem. If it's an escalation of previously underlying patterns, which seems more possible from your later post, then it could be psychological. Either way I would strongly encourage her to see a doctor.

If she won't see one, or sees one and turns out be be simply unpleasant rather than unwell (or if she is unwell but treatment doesn't restore her to reasonable behaviour) keep your child well away.

If they have any contact it should be closely supervised and with very clear ground rules about how she speaks to your daughter and to you. Stop the visit immediately at the first broken rule.

She is not entitled to behave like this, and it's not harmless.

My first thought was the start of Alzheimers. I know two people this happened to and one of the first signs was saying shockingly nasty things to people.

Why don't you have contact with your sister? I only ask because I wonder if you were the chosen favourite child, the one she most closely associated with and can't stand you having your own mind.