Helping DD deal with EA dad with added ...ahem... dependency issues (long)

[spudalicious]

Forgive me mumsnet if I ramble. It's the rage I think.

Here's the state of play:

I left my EA husband and alcohol dependent husband several months ago on the day he decided to pick DD (7) up from school so drunk he couldn't stand up straight.

I went to court shortly after and got interim residence and prohibited steps orders. These were recently, on return to court, made final.

My DD and I live back in our house now.

So far, so dandy, right?

Up until now I have facilitated contact on an extremely reasonable basis between ex and DD as she wants to see her dad. He has, as far as I can tell, generally maintained his side of the bargain (enshrined in court order) to remain sober before and during contact. He has contact at our house generally because he isn't currently living somewhere suitable. As he has seemed sober I have taken to going out while they spend time together as the situation can often turn unpleasant between us if I don't.

This evening he turned up and I suspected he had been drinking. He denied it vigorously but I was unconvinced. He wasn't overtly drunk and I took the stupid decision to allow contact to go ahead as DD wanted to spend time with her dad.

1 hour in, and I'm still not sure why, but he decided to flounce off with no warning. DD had sought me out to ask me a question and then he appeared to announce he was leaving because there was 'no point him being there'. DD, understandably burst into tears, then he did and started shouting at me 'Look what you've done! This is all your fault' DD got more and more upset so I asked him to leave and he went to go, at which point she got more upset. He didn't leave, although I was asking him (as matter of factly as I could) to do so. Still crying and hanging onto DD he shouted 'Your mum took me to court!', 'It's all her fault', 'She thinks I might steal you away!' (please note the reason I think this is because he told me he would if I ever left him) and various other things - all directed at me, all blaming me and all quite sweary.

Eventually I got him to leave, with DD physically fighting me so she could try and make him stay because she 'didn't want him to leave when he was so sad'.

I managed to calm her down, with a little help from a friend and discussed the situation as best I could. I now know he has in addition told her 'he is sad and it is all mummy's decision', and that 'he has no money' and lives in a 'horrible place'.

Now obviously I can see this for the vile emotional manipulation it is, but it is SO upsetting my DD that I feel I have no choice but to issue an ultimatum. Essentially: 'cut that shit out or see her much more rarely/not at all'.

My problems/questions are:

1. That's not BU right?
2. Most importantly, how to I make DD understand why I am doing what I am doing without making it seem like her dad is rotten?
3. And not seem like the worst mum in the world for not letting her have the thing she wants most?
4. Help her learn to recognise what this is and how to cope with it?

He refuses to recognize that any of his behaviour was unreasonable. He refuses to accept the reasons I left. Despite my good relationship with my daughter, after today I am terrified he will turn her against me, at least enough to make her believe everything is my fault.

I'm also utterly paranoid that I am completely identifiable.... especially if my next door neighbour is a mumsnet lurker. If so

I would say you need some professional advice, ie from a child expert, child psychologist or similar so that you know how to describe your Ex's drink problems to a 7 year old. Very difficult for you and DD, how can she understand his alcy behaviour?? She will when she is older but just sees a sad Dad now. Perhaps there is a child psychologist available through her school?

Having contact at your house just is not going to work. Dd is naturally confused as he keeps coming back into the home hence she doesn't want him to leave.
Sort out contact at a contact centre or elsewhere eg family ?

You need to be truthful with dd about his drink problem she presumablyY has witnessed it right ?

There is a service near me where you can get child psych advice over the phone. See if there is something similar or ask gp to refer you to play therapist or family therapist to get advice on how to explain to her .

Firstly, have a chat with DD and explain to her that Daddy is not well in his mind, and that he loves her very much but sometimes behaves unreasonably. The key thing to get across to her is that his unreasonable behaviour is not her fault and not your fault either. How much alcoholism is an illness and how much it's being a selfish wanker is one of those subjects that's open to a big debate, but the kinder and more helpful thing for DD is to treat it as an illness that makes a person unreasonable.

Secondly, do stop contact at your home. Given that he's broken the conditions of the court order by turning up drunk, it's OK to refuse contact for the moment until you have arranged a safe way of doing it (say to DD that it's because Daddy is ill, again.) If there's no contact centre nearby or available, is there any friend or family member who could supervise from a distance - if part of his unreasonableness is a wish to slobber over you and demand you take him back?

Thanks all. I'm now considering a contact centre, although have no idea how to go about getting that organised. However, once I've got over feeling emotionally shattered I'm sure I can find out. The reason I held off was because DD was really not keen on the idea and if I'm honest, I've been terrified of suggesting it to my exH. I'm also scared of how he's going to react to me refusing contact until I work out what to do next.

I appreciate what you are all saying about contact at the house being confusing - I normally try and alleviate this by not being there if I don't feel I need to be. Perhaps though. I have been as communicative as I can with DD throughout this situation (although until it was screamed at her last night she did not know about court, maybe that was stupid of me) and I have explained often that her dad coming to see her at home is because that's where she is most comfortable and her dad wants to sort out a nice place for her to visit him before we do it that way. I don't honestly think she is confused about the future. She is not happy about it, but she is not in any doubt that mum and dad do not live together any more.

Her PRIMARY concern is that her dad is unhappy and 'always crying' as he told her and she feels she needs to fix that. That is, of course, because she has lived in an environment all her life where the feelings of my exH were everyone else's problem. I accept my part in letting that go on too long, but I'm hoping to be less of a fuckwit in future.

I'm glad people suggested a child psych. It's what I'm leaning towards. She likes to talk about it. I do what I can, but when I explained it as an illness before, she ended up thinking he was going to die sooner rather than later, which was less than helpful (I wasn't over dramatic - honest!). Her teacher at school is also happy to listen, but I'm not sure it's enough.

I'm so angry and so emotional today. I'm struggling not to cry at work. I had to carry her kicking, punching and screaming back into our house yesterday as her dad stood outside crying and screaming 'Look what you've done to us! Look what you've done to her!' over and over. Then when he'd gone she was furious with me for 'letting him leave' and wouldn't accept that him staying was the worst thing that could have happened.

Sorry, all my posts are so confusing. There's so much background information.

Oh that's so awful :( can you speak to him when he is most likely to be sober and see if he acknowledges it at all? You simply can't allow her to see him if he is likely to abuse her like that. A contact centre is the only option from now on, they will not let him in if he has been drinking and they are really quite nice places, ime.

It's pretty grim. I spoke to him briefly this morning, while I presume he was sober and asked him what his opinion was. He was of the opinion that it was all my fault and my responsibility that he cries and shouts in front of her because 'you won't let me shout at you any other time'. I, calmly (in voice if not spirit) pointed out that his behaviour wasn't my responsibility. But in the end the conversation went nowhere. He accepted no responsibility at all. I've just told him that I'm not allowing that to happen again, but have gone no further. His final comment was 'Are you threatening me now?'

This is a man who yesterday when I said 'Please stop shouting, this isn't about you now' screamed 'IT IS ALL ABOUT ME!' at the top of his voice in front of his child.

I. Give. Up.

I am so tired and so frustrated. Why can't he just be a sodding grown up?

He was of the opinion that it was all my fault and my responsibility that he cries and shouts in front of her because 'you won't let me shout at you any other time'.

That is, quite frankly, one of the oddest things I've heard in a while. Because you won't let him shout at you any other time?? Seriously?? What a FW.

Why can't he just be a sodding grown up?

Indeed. My sympathies, as I have found myself asking this same question myself many times.

you need to avoid any contact between you and your ex, right from now.

so that there is no chance of dd witnessing such behaviour.
no you cant control him but you can control how and when YOU have contact with him.

DD wants to see him? then at a contact centre. some are voluntary run and not expensive. call around via naccc
or if has to be in your house (which i still think sends wrong message to dd, as leads to hope he might be able to move back in one day even if on subconscious level) then have someone else there to supervise and watch her until you get back.

go to gp and ask for help from family therapist - this has been extremely helpful in my sit with dds and allowed them to express themselves. oldest still doesnt want to see dad and younger only on her terms - they've expressed very forcefully (without me in the room) how thy feel about ~HIs behaviour whch similar to your ex (blaming me etc)

log his verbal shouting with someone - eg your GP (is he being treated for alcoholism?) or in a diary; email him to say given his verbal abuse of you there can be no more contact with YOU.
that you want to facilitate contact with DD but it will have to be elsewhere

what does the contact order say?
when and where contact?

mamking child available for contact can no longer involve you and him having any contact at handovers - because he has been abusive to you shouting etc (and this in front of DD)

do not speak to ex any more on phone or face to face - only by email keeiping your end polite and factual. this creates a record as you may well end up back in court...

what is the PSO for?

Alateen?

Poor DD, this sounds very damaging for her. If she says she's fine or only worried about DF don't believe it. She will be affected greatly, though it's not your fault and you are doing your best, so v important you and she speak to someone who does know about the damage these experiences can have and that you have some help. (am no expert but am the DD of lifelong alcy, not nearly as bad as your DH but it leaves a legacy!).

Thanks all. Some answers:

My problem with DD is that, whatever her other issues are, and I don't doubt she has them, she is SO worried about her dad that it stops her properly processing her own emotions. For e.g. she knows she is happier living with me, but will ask to live with her dad to 'be there to stop him being sad'

I will make a GPs appt with my lovely GP to try and find a family therapist.

"log his verbal shouting with someone - eg your GP (is he being treated for alcoholism?) or in a diary; email him to say given his verbal abuse of you there can be no more contact with YOU. "

Will mention it to GP, although he is not being treated. Will not go near medical professionals and maintains he has no alcohol issues.

Verbal abuse - at least part of it was witnessed by neighbour and she was also told about it by DD.

"that you want to facilitate contact with DD but it will have to be elsewhere"

I'm going to research option this week. Then grow a spine, I'm terrified of telling him about this.

"what does the contact order say?
when and where contact?"

I don't have a contact order. I have a residence order to me with 'contact to be agreed between parties' I think.

"mamking child available for contact can no longer involve you and him having any contact at handovers - because he has been abusive to you shouting etc (and this in front of DD)"

I can see this is sensible, but I have no idea whose problem I can make this. In addition - with his alcohol issues it will need to be someone confident enough to assess his state and refuse contact if necessary.

"do not speak to ex any more on phone or face to face - only by email keeiping your end polite and factual. this creates a record as you may well end up back in court... "

I appreciate this, but he has no access to email at the moment. I will have to do it by text although he refuses to communicate that way.

"what is the PSO for?"

no alcohol for 24 hours prior to contact, no alcohol during contact.
cannot remove from my care or care of those who I have entrusted without agreement and only for contact as agreed.
to return DD in a timely fashion at the end of contact.

I guess realistically I am looking at finding and using a contact centre. It's not a pleasing solution, but accept it is a sensible one.

Oh your poor DD, this must be so horrible for her. What a cock he is! But definitely restrict contact to a contact centre. Remember he's already broken the PSO by being drunk during contact so he cannot take any legal action against you. If he decides to become aggressive or come to your house and cause a disturbance call the police. Remember that if he behaves like a dick he can take the consequences. If he won't communicate by text, tough shit, he doesn't get to see DD.

I've had a similar experience to you recently and, following advice on here, sought legal advice (I don't have any court orders in place).

The solicitor I spoke to was very clear that all decisions should be made in the best interest of the child and what the child wants to happen is not always in their best interest.

He was very clear that courts do not like what in their view is emotional abuse and making a child feel responsible for their parents wellbeing is emotional abuse. I was advised to contact my ds's father, clearly stating that the behaviour must stop and that if it didn't, the contact would cease until I was confident that his behaviour would be improved.

So far this has worked for me (and I was and still am a little scared of my exs behaviour). But after speaking with a solicitor, I am confident abut ceasing contact if things deteriorate.

I hope that you can resolve this as I feel, as in my case, that trying to be reasonable with someone who isn't can be turned around and almost used against you.

Good luck and best wishes OP.

Sounds really hard. Why are you scared of telling him you want to use a contact centre? Are you concerned for your or DD's safety? If so, please seek advice from people who are experienced with situations like this (womens aid or social services?)

Thanks fan that's really useful to know. I do have a solicitor, she is excellent, but as a result costs about twelfty-million pounds an hour, so I prefer to save her for special occasions.

I am going to contact him again, calmly to explain what I found unacceptable and follow it up with an email, although he can't access them regularly it gives us both a record of what happened. Then, until I find a solution minimize my contact with him to the extreme (would be especially nice to be able to stop the 6 or 7 texts I get every day, asking how 'our' day is going and professing love/sadness/telling me how much is has cried today, but always refusing to discuss actual arrangements)

Dozer, yes. I think I am ultimately scared. Of possible violence (to me) as he is a violent, angry person although he has never physically hurt me before, he has other people and he keeps telling me I have pushed him further than anyone else ever has. It's also likely he will turn up when drunk and there will be more damaging scenes. More frightening is the worry that if contact is not happening in the way he thinks is acceptable he may decide to take DD. This is something that was regularly threatened and I just cannot, despite knowing that I now can get her back as per orders, bear the idea of that happening. And you know what, I can't imagine seeing her dad taken away by the police on the request of her mum is going to be something she is going to be thrilled about, especially as she is currently convinced I am being somewhat 'mean' to him. See also: him telling her that I 'took him to court' and her asking me yesterday 'why did you do that to daddy'.

Sorry. I talk so much. I have some people to talk to in RL, but I don't like to burden.

SGB - slight problem is that I believe he has broken the PSO by turning up drunk, but he denied it and called me a 'fucking idiot' when I suggested he'd been drinking. My neighbour, who saw him when he was leaving also thought he had been drinking - smell/behaviour, but there's no proof.

No problem talking on here spudalicious.

. But It's great that you're not with him anymore!

If he does turn up and you're scared, call the police, you can get help later for DD in understanding it all, at the moment safety is key. Do people know about the threats he's made to take DD? Is there anyone who can help you tell him about the contact centre? Wait til you've got it organised and arranged any help you can get access to.

Spud

I just wanted to say that you sound like a brilliant brilliant mum. Brave, protective and loving to your DD. I'm sure things are tough at the moment but you're doing a great job and she will understand this when she is older.

Could accessing some form of family therapy for you and her be helpful? It might give her a chance to get the support that you want for her but also give her a safe space in which she can ask you difficult questions and even challenge you if she feels she needs to. It might also give you some support too.

I've also had advice from Coram's children legal advice line 0808 802 0008, which offers free legal advice concerning children's matters. Which might be helpful to you as I know solicitors can be expensive. They talked me through getting a prohibitive steps order myself, should I ever need to.

I can also identify with the endless text messaging. My ex expected an instant response to ever single message and I'd end up with 15 or more messages over the course of an hour then he'd turn up on the doorstep as I hadn't responded. I found that ignoring everything that wasn't directly about our son's contact stopped this and I can now go weeks without hearing from him (although my son is nearly 12 so able to sort pick up times etc himself to some degree).

I hope I'm not seeing something that isn't there with your situation but, from my experience, this kind of behaviour is a way of trying to retain control, particularly the threats of taking your child away (we're 6 years on from separation and it's never happened by the way).

As previous posters have said though, if you can limit contact between yourself and him, stand you ground on his unacceptable behaviour (and it is unacceptable) and show him you're serious, he will back down as he wil have no other choice. You aren't being unreasonable, you're protecting your child.

I'm not sure I can add much to what everyone's said, but I wanted to say I really sympathise. My FW also informs DD (8) how sad he is, and she tries constantly to fix that, says that maybe she should spend more time at Daddy's as she thinks he might get lonely...

Well done with how far you've got. Your concern for your daughter's well-being when you have so much going on is lovely to see.

s&s - why thankee! I'm not so brilliant though. I'm all sorts of flawed! You just have to look at the lack of stickers on my reward chart (we run a very democratic house these days!) to see that. But, I am learning that just because I so wish my DD could have the dad she deserves, it doesn't mean she's got one and I'm doing her no favours by still trying to make that so. I have to help her deal with the hand she's been dealt, but I do wish I could have a go with a magic wand, just the once.

Family therapy is looking favourite. We had an amateur go last night when my best friend helped out by asking me the questions DD was too upset to ask but still wanted answers to. It helped quite a lot I think.

Fan - I got the PSO and the residence orders myself, after a 15 minute tutorial from a paralegal. I had no idea what I was doing and despite the para telling me it was 'very common' to do it, ahem, solo, everyone I saw at court was astonished I did it alone. My solicitor when I eventually saw her was highly amused by my statement to the court - said it was the shortest one she'd ever seen and the judge had probably been thrilled not to have to wade through pages of statement.

I do ignore texting unless it directly relates to DD, but I find it incredibly stressful, wearing and sometimes just downright irritating. I mean, is it possible to not see the disconnect between 'You're a stupid fucking bitch who has made me and DD unhappy. You're not nearly as right as you think you are' and 24 hours later 'Did you have a nice day today? I love you'. For. Fucks. Sake.

Sorry - there are some v. poorly constructed sentences in that last post. Good luck with untangling some of those clauses. Soz.

Far from it spudalicious. You write really clearly sounds like you handled court well too! You'll get things sorted.

Also like the idea of a reward chart for parents, might have a go!

I think your ex and my ex were separated at birth, he does Jekyll and Hyde too. It hard when the attacks are personal but I suppose that's why they do it, they know it gets to you.

Is it possible to have a separate phone for him which you can turn off if you don't feel up to dealing with him or even getting a friend to read through to see i there's any sensible questions or requests without you having to see the rest.