Some thoughts about "toxic" people

[flippinada]

I've read and contributed to a couple of threads where people are having to deal with what I would describe as toxic friends and family and the distress that it cause. I've had issues in the past with people this myself and it's really got me thinking.

Once thing that struck me from these threads, plus my own experience of toxic types is that there seems to be common "themes" - the one that immediately comes to mind is that the toxic person needs an enabler - usually a husband or wife who panders to their awful behaviour and colludes with them.

I know there's already a wonderful support thread (stately homes) but I thought it might be helpful to have a general discussion about how to identify these people and cope with them, plus a kind of support thing so folk know they aren't alone in having to deal with it alone?

How has being brought up by a toxic bitch affected me?

I had no self esteem for a very long time, I thought that no one would ever like me for who I was, so I became a people pleasing chameleon, it was awful and ended with me very nearly committing suicide. She was my NoK so the hospital called her. I was lying there, attached to machines and all that jazz and she started crying embarrassingly loudly and said 'I have never understood why you have such low self esteem'. I knew then that she had absolutely no insight into what she had done and who she is, which oddly helped me to accept the help I needed. Up until then she had had me completely fooled, I was totally convinced that I was useless, fat, stupid, had wasted my life, had ruined her life, the whole litany.

I totally get the idea that even if you are able to work up the balls to confront them, the whole thing just sounds so petty, such tiny little things, but it all adds up to an adult, dumping their adult difficulties and problems on the shoulders of a child and it's vile. I can't imagine ever being able to list why I can't have a relationship with her, she would just start crying and telling me what a terrible daughter I am and always have been, and I've heard it all before. I have grown a small set though, when she started to make MY children 'golden child' or scapegoat she got told in no uncertain terms that I was having none of it. I can protect my lads in ways I could never dream of protecting myself.

I now have real friends, in fact I have a good few of them. I know they are real friends because when she sidles up to them to tell them about something awful I did (real or imagined) they tend to laugh at her and tell her that I am amazing now, and then tell me what she did and said and we have a giggle. The FOG is slowly clearing, we are planning to emigrate in the near future and all shall be well!

My father was/is somewhere on the narcissistic spectrum. The older I get the more I can see how dysfunctional his behaviour is. My mother was kind but never really stood up to him so ended up enabling his bad behaviour.

We had the classic dysfunctional family scenario whereby the siblings all had 'roles'. I was the one that caused no trouble. Which in some ways wasn't that bad but it means I find it hard to stand up for myself. Also, having a narcissistic father has definitely impacted negatively on my relationships with men.

What I have found is that the family dysfunction continues into the next generation. My father treats the grandchildren differently, favouring those of the 'golden child' (one of my sisters) especially the boys (he is incredibly chavenistic, although that wasn't unusual in his generation).

I have had to work very hard to minimise any negative impacts on my own children and in fact they have a reasonably good relationship with my father. I didn't allow my parents to minimise the achievements of my children (as my parents did to me) and tried to make sure that I treated both my children equally and fairly. I always tried to encourage them and not be too critical as my own parents were incredibly critical and judgemental - nothing was ever good enough.

The one good thing about having a toxic parent is that you become quite adept at spotting it in other people and you know how to avoid them/minimise their impact. For instance, I can spot a narcissistic man pretty easily, whereas some of my friends have been blindsided by charming men who have turned out to be narcissistic/sociopathic etc.

My radar is not as well tuned with women, however and recently I have had the misfortune of encountering a couple of women who, it turns out, I would say had personality disorders. Unfortunately, by the time I had worked it out, they had caused considerable harm to my private life/career.

Well, that's another story!

I've had some counselling but in the end it's best to become your own counsellor. If you have had poor parenting you end up having to parent yourself.

The other word of warning about counselling - there are some dysfunctional counsellors out there so shop around and be careful. I came across one who made things worse - deliberately provoking me and baiting me. Took me eight sessions to see through her little 'game'. Since then I have been in contact with other people who have experienced similar things with a counsellor. Shocking but I guess vulnerable people make rich pickings.

I agree there are some shockingly bad counsellors out there - people who are themselves toxic.

Always go with your gut instinct and have an initial session and avoid any counsellor who makes you feel uneasy or stressed.

Thank you for this thread OP. It's so sad seeing the people who have been in my life described so accurately here.

Double, you have struck a chord with me, saying that you were only allowed to be the person your mother permitted you to be. I am struggling to 'find' myself and develop some sort of individual personality. Very difficult when you feel you are a non-person.

Until now, I have been the invisible child (and the scapegoat too for good measure), I have never been nurtured and I've had two abusive husbands. I have to be very wary and hypervigilant with my adult children because of the risk of manipulation

Fortunately, if a bit late in life, I am quick to recognise toxic behaviours. I work with someone who displays all the traits mentioned but what I cannot comprehend is why is she so damned popular?

Seriously, despite being PA, a drama queen who has frequent screaming tantrums (Yes. At work!!), and is a needy, selfish, narcissistic attention seeker, people seem to love her. Why on earth should this be? I cannot stand the woman and avoid her as much as possible. I think I have insight but can't work out why people would be drawn to such a despicable character.

Agree it's best to be your own counsellor.

The one I had did help me become more self aware but sometimes sneaked in little digs.

For example she once said, "I'll bet your son thinks it's great that his dad has found another woman."

She worked from home and on one occasion her husband opened the door and shouted and swore at me for ringing the bell while she had another client in the house.

I accepted this because at the time I didn't think I deserved to be treated any better.

Fuck, I'm angry now

Oblio They might not like her. they might be too scared to not be friends with her because of how miserable she could make their lives.

Hey 0blio glad you're finding the thread helpful.

WRT your colleague, lots of sympathy. I bet she isn't well liked at all. People will just be worried about keeping on her good side and not being targets.

Good point goodjam. She's either being horrible or fawning all over people, hugging them and telling them to text her when they've 'got home safely' (laughable as most of us have less than half an hour's commuting time)

She loves it if anyone's ill or in trouble, her face lights up at the merest hint of another's misfortune.

That's what I'm going to tell myself flip, I hate getting drawn into this kind of thing. Most people can shrug it off - even the people she's been abusive towards - and I'd love to as well.

oblio, there is a saying 'keep your friends close, but your enemies closer still'. Well, not exactly the same,,but your experience with your work colleague isn't too wide off the mark..

Oh see I cross posted with goodjam! I reckon she's spot on.

People like that are just so horrible to work with. I had a colleague like that - she could change the atmosphere of a room just by walking in to out. Just awful.

bringback-my dad is the same with my mum. He loves her too much. He won't leave.
He does answer her back,'yeah, yeah, fetch me carry me', when she demands something, but he still carries on doing everything for her.

Every time I read this thread, I feel comforted, supported but saddened that so many of us are dealing with the same sort of experiences.

I agree with those of you who have a group of friends as a substitute for family. It takes me a while to get to know people and to trust them, but once I feel secure with them, they are friends for life. In fact, the friend I have known all my life, also has a toxic mother, and we get great comfort from knowing that we understand what eachother is going through.

I find it really hard to describe my relationship with my mother to friends. I really don't know where to start. I try to give examples, but I can't ever really convey exactly how she makes me feel.

It seems that so many of you have been able to maintain a relationship with your siblings despite falling into the scapegoat/golden child scenario. I'm keen to know how you manage that.

My mother plays my sister and me off one another. When one is the golden child, the other is the scapegoat. I was the golden child for about 5 years, until I was about 25, but I genuinely didn't know it at the time. I had no idea she was being so hideous to my younger sister. Telling her she was at a terrible university, that she had awful friends/boyfriends etc. etc.

I only found out how badly my mother was treating my sister, when it came to my sister's wedding. My sister had handmade all her invitations and it had been a real labour of love. When it came to sending them out, my mother decided that they weren't good enough for her friends, so secretly got others printed, sent those to her friends and sent my sisters handmade ones to everyone else. My mother then told me that she had done this and it was only at that point that I saw the light and began to question her relationships with us, her daughters. Thinking about it now makes me so angry and guilty.

My sister never told me how awful our mother had been to her, and how it affected her. I know that she withdrew from the family. My sister and I tried to rebuild our relationship soon after she got married and I had realised how terribly she had been treated. Our mother hated the fact that her daughters were actually getting on really well. Unfortunately, my sister then moved overseas and at that point my relationship with her took a nose dive. I am now the scapegoat (and have been for the past 10 years or so) and my sister is the golden child.

What I don't understand is why my sister can't see how I am feeling or how I am being treated, having been on the receiving end herself. Surely she, of all people, should 'get it'? Instead, every email I write to my sister is forwarded on to our mother. She allows any trip back to the UK to be carefully controlled by our mother, to the point where I have to beg for any time with her (she was able to come and spend the day with us but not stay overnight).

So, those of you who have managed to keep a sibling relationship going, through the whole golden child/scapegoat routine - how have you done it?

Sorry this is a massive post!

Ohmygosh- really funny feeling reading your post about your mum with you and your sister. My mum has been strange since db moved out of home and got his own life. If he visits me or vice versa she's constantly texting or phoning. It's weird, like she has to know what we're talking about or something. I still get on with him because he's very stoic about mum. He doesn't mention her much and doesn't talk back to her about me. He just doesn't get involved with the backbiting. Good on him.

Awful what your mum did with the wedding invitations does your sister know? I hope you can get that closeness back with her (Dsis) in the future. Sounds like you were good ally's.

I don't know whether my sister knows about the invitations - I've never dared mention it.

As for being close allies - I don't think we have been...yet, but I really think we could be in the future. At least, I hope so.

Just saying goodnight, will be back tomorrow

Big to you all, and much hand holding xxxx

Oblio - I had to laugh - I had a work colleague exactly like that. The day after my lovely mum died - she rang me, to spend an hour discussing her up coming disciplinary (just to chat about it) I said do you know my mum died yesterday - her response - oh yeah - and continued chatting about her problem - caused by her being such a stampy footed princess (in her 40's). Sadly the good staff (including me) left because of her intolerable behaviour.
Its the whole - being lovely to people - that fools everyone.
They do not see the nasty bastards who have become so adept at hiding their true persona.

dothraki it was the same where I worked; and in fact I left for the same reason. So glad to be out of that place.

Me too - its soo good to get those people out of your life

dothraki and oblio-I posted previously about being bullied by a work colleague, well, yes of course, why didn't I see the bloody link til now? Staring me in the face. Thought something sounded familiar, The toxicity. Mum. I'm in the process of looking for another job.

dothraki-I had to ring in work once to say I couldn't come in as dh had an op the day before (short notice) and needed help getting around. My colleague laughed and joked about it like he had a boil on his bum or something. Of course, people could only hear her half of the conversation on the phone It was the day after my dh had his tumour removed from his testicle, which turned out malignant

Also whats scaring me is thought of subconsciously taking on my mums bad traits. I try my best to be as nice to people as possible, only to be bullied/scapegoated in return. A vicious circle. I don't have children either so cannot lead by example......

Crushed - and its so bloody annoying, I think they get promoted out of harms way

doth, I wish they would promote her, as long as she doesn't become my boss. I don't think she'd go for it if offered anyway, she is intending to stay where she is, and sit on her a**e til she retires. Thats why I'm looking for another job

Crushed - you get yourself promoted and be her boss

doth- I 'd get my own back, thats for sure...

dh thinks I look deranged....