Turning Tavern

[outtaleftfield]

Hi I am new to this and could do with some advise, is there anyone out there who was on the previous Turning Tavern threads?

Hi there. I dipped into the turning tavern a bit but not much.

I'm married with one child. Just before I got married (only a couple of months before) I moved jobs and met this co-worker. She worked on a different site to me and later when we worked together, she was my boss. I liked her immediately but wasn't strongly attracted to her at first. When I did start to have feelings for her our working relationship was a good stopper to anything other than idle musings. 6 years on we don't work together any more. I go for coffee with her every couple of months, and I feel very strongly for her. I've never even dared to ask what her sexual preferences are in case she'd actually be interested, she's long term single and almost asexual.

I've always been attracted to women, right from my early teens, but when I was younger I did prefer men both sexually and also socially/as friends. Gradually I've found I've become more interested in women as I've got older.

My H knew I was bi as I told him when we met (I'd just divorced and had "come out" to my first H when we'd split). To be honest, I'd promised myself that there wouldn't be a H no 2, but then fell for H. He's very sweet, but quite moody - a bit of a sulker, and I feel that I carry him quite a bit. I generally am left to organise our lives, sort bills, run the house etc. He does quite a bit with our DD, though he struggles with it - at least he tries - he does morning school run etc. We both work in quite demanding jobs. Generally we co-exist as a couple though and whilst we're cuddly we not physically close.

So what do I do? I don't want to break up with H and would really value this lady as a friend if I could get my feelings to subside. I feel that it's probably worse because I've "never been kissed" when it comes to women, despite having had crushes on women from about 12 or 13, plus my marriage isn't great - I do resent H and I don't really find him attractive.

sorry to jump on your thread by the way OP. The original turning tavern was a bit of a melting pot so I didn't think.

Dear Followyourjoy,

Thanks for explaining the bit about the mirror, I am now actually feeling that perhaps I don't need to talk about it with her in order to understand what this is all about. I have never really spent much time thinking about the spiritual side of things, but do believe that people can come into your life for a reason and that this could be one of those people, it needn't be sexual as I had previously thought, but just loving. I feel an immense amount of love well up in both of us when we are around each other. I hope I can keep feeling like this, don't delete your post as I will keep reading it.

Any book recommendations would be gratefully received. Thank you so much again.

I came out to my partner 6 months ago -we are now dealing with the fall-out. i want to seperate, he is still in denial. When we first got together i had been 'out' to everyone for 7 years, (my close family were very unsupportive-i felt like a freak), previously i had identified as bisexual. Anyway, we became friends and gradually fell for each other. Over the years we have had difficult times but got over them. Last year, completely unexpectedly i fell completely in love with a woman (not reciprocated), it was overwhelming and quite terrifying. It led me to completely breakdown, it was like a huge awakening and left me feeling completely groundless. However, the subsequent guilt of thinking i am smashing my family to bits and hurting people by wanting to be who i am is horrible. I know this doesn't sound very helpful or positive but i guess in time things will work out for the best for us.

Hi redrobin, that sounds really tough. I guess when these feelings are really in you, something will happen that means eventually they will have to come out. Do you regret telling the person how you felt? Do you think it would have been easier on you now if you hadn.t? Or did you have no choice? I am sure in time it will all settle down and people will adapt, but hell while you are going through it.

Hello all - lurking here on my stool. I have to butt in and say that I feel it's really important to be true to yourself whatever happens. Too many people live a lie, a sham or put up with stuff that makes them unhappy and in the long run they suffer and so does everyone around them. If you are truly happy with your life, your lot, this can only ripple out to everyone else in a positive way. All said, I understand that it's not always easy.

loveis-it is so true. Society and personal experiences lead us into living a life that is wrong for us sometimes and it is such a shock when we suddenly find oh! this wasn't how it was meant to be. outta-I just didn't have a choice but to talk to this woman-i just said 'i like you and i don't know what to do'-it was such a physical thing like my body could no longer contain all my feelings and the fact that being gay is integral to me, to my whole person not just sexual. It was such a crashing realisation-an awakening but i was also filled with this huge grief which was alarming but also quite public! So i cannot pretend nothing has happened, i cannot go back.

redrobin, that sounds like a rebirth of sorts, it must have been a very difficult experience at the time. Sorry to hear your partner is still in denial though :( That must be challenging to deal with. I hope things progress for the both of you, and do keep posting here. Sometimes it's just helpful to write thoughts out.

Hi redrobin, It sounds like you always had a feeling that you were bisexual or gay. I have never felt like that, I may be bisexual but I don't think I am gay. Having said that I have never felt so drawn to anyone in my life before. It wouldn't be so difficult if she wasn't the mother of all my kids best friends, I too feel that I will eventually have to say something as I don't know if I can carry on as it is. I am worried that it will be awful and I won't be able to get away and it will be worse than it is now. I have been able to identify with what followyourjoy said. I just need to keep reading it!

what followyourjoy wrote was really profound. It really is about something inside that has awakened and is projected onto the other person. I guess outta that only you can make the decision about talking to this woman. You cannot know her response before hand, everyone reacts differently to things. When i spoke to this woman who i was crazy about she never at any point or since said whether she liked me or not but she did become quite angry later on which was confusing. I used to try and read the clues - the way she looked at me, something she said, sometimes it was clear she liked me and sometimes i thought, it's all in my head! It depends if you think you can cope-with not saying anything or with the subsequent fall-out if you do talk to her. But you know, she may be really kind and she very likely may be aware already. Sexuality can be quite fluid and changing over time - for me it has become fixed so at least i am sure of one thing!

Hi All.....I hope Outta you're feeling better about your situation, and I wanted to give you a book recommendation. I would suggest for starters you read Eckhart Tolle's "The Power of Now". It's absolutely clear and brilliantly simple yet profound. It really changed the way I thought about feelings and our attachment to them and also bringing everything back to the present moment, which is key. There are soooo many books out there. I started years ago by reading Buddhist philosophy, Krishnamurti, Osho, there are too many to mention! See how you get on with that one....I'm sure it will give you some amazing insights. Really, I think the first step is to realise our addiction in this western, material world to the identification and attachment to the mind, call it the ego self, which is in fact the FALSE self. Our society is ruled by the intellect and the ego (and look at what an almighty MESS it is), and has overlooked the heart which is so much more honest and truthful & expansive. A decision made from the heart is easy...I only trust my heart, never my head (although this does take work, as the ego so desperately wants us to identify with the mind)...the mind has a function, of course....knowledge is very fantastic but in order to get closer to our true selves, we need to drop the mind and identify with the space within us ~call it the 'no mind". That space will connect us to the vastness of life, the divine matrix if you like, which is so precious and has no limits. This I would say is the Life force which gives energy to all life forms. Once you have had a taste of it, you will be able to feel incredibly expansive and welcome any glitch in your life as an opportunity to deepen your understanding of your true purpose. This is why I say its a gift, to be in a state of discomfort, not knowing the outcome....these are our biggest challenges and paths towards something more sacred. If you really dig deep and inquire about what you have to learn here, there can be no bad outcome. The universe is supporting you, so you can also hand it all over. Be aware that you don't have to rush into saying something to your friend.....sit with it and feel relaxed about it before saying anything. Your subtle energy will affect her and she will then also be relaxed about it. You've probably reached that place of discomfort where you can't cope with the mental torture of it and want to get it "out of your mind"....and that's understandable. Your work now is to reach a state of grace within yourself so that you have no expectations from her if you do decide to tell her, rather it is coming from a place of true understanding and peace within yourself. I think if you drop the story about your kids being friends, what she will think of you, the possible fall out etc. (because it is just a "story") and simply talk about it calmly at the right time, when you feel ready...there will be a positive outcome. It's not good for you to be coming from a state of desperation or expectation.

Hi all, I wasn't on the original TT thread but thought I'd throw my twopence in to the conversation.

outtaleftfield I wish I had the answer to your dilemma. I too have been in a similar situation and cried myself to sleep a hundred times before I made a decision as to what I would do. And even then, it wasn't really a conscious decision, it all just sort of happened and I felt it was entirely out of my hands. I can totally relate to what has been said about people coming into your life for a reason, I guess it might help if I briefly told you my story. Actually, nothing about this story is brief but I'll go for it anyway.

I had been with my partner for 6 years, we had 2 beautiful children, a girl and a boy, and we moved from central London to a little town in Surrey. My partner wasn't a particularly nice man and had become quite abusive and controlling over the years. I was desperately unhappy but had no confidence and no courage to tell him he had to leave.
Anyway, once DD started school I started going in the local coffee shop a few times a week with some of the other mums. The barista was a tiny, pretty thing who I immediately felt a connection with, despite having never been attracted to a woman before. She had an odd way about her though, and I got the feeling she didn't like me, but for some reason I couldn't stay away from the place. I began to go in earlier than the other mums so I could have ten minutes on my own, where she would usually come over and chat to me. These visits became more and more about seeing said barista and less about meeting the mums for a coffee and chat. I started to realise I was very much attracted to her and despite knowing very little about her I was sure she was gay. I remember vividly when she was making my skinny latte and had her back to me, she scratched the back of her neck and I saw the tattoo she had there. All I could think about for the rest of that day was what the rest of her back looked like and, eventually, what the rest of her looked like!! Over time she softened and I began to think she didn't hate me after all! Around Easter last year there was a circus in town (a rarity, and the whole town was unbelievably excited!) Of all the free seats in the circus, the barista decided to sit next to me and I can honestly tell you the feeling was unbearable. It was the first time I'd ever seen her out of work, in her own clothes and relaxed, not all work-ish. The smell of her hair and the electric shock that went through me when her leg brushed mine almost made me cry. I know she felt it too, she eventually told me so but something about the way she edged closer to me and made excuses to lean in to me made me sure of it. I didn't want the stupid, and really really crap, circus to end because then we would go back to our normal lives and our little circus bubble would be burst.

So eventually we swapped numbers, I made a really stupid excuse about wanting a coffee shop voucher for the school raffle (yes, clever I know!) and began texting. Like a lot of texting. Like I had a 3000 text allowance which I used in 2 weeks lot of texting. And there was some declaration of feelings, some conversation about how I would go about getting my partner to move out, she came round a few times in the evening and there was some hand holding, and eventually some kissing.

My partner moved out, after much fuss and drama, and barista began to come round every night for cuddles and films, take aways and just talking and giggling. We were in a very happy, giggly girl place, with lots of painting of each others nails and plaiting of each others hair. It sounds disgustingly corny now, but it wasn't, it was beautiful and amazing and I truly thought I was in love with her.

It transpired, however, that she was very much in contact with her ex still, another mum at the school and it eventually ended, 7 months later with the ex slapping me in the face, them getting back together and my world crumbling just a little bit. I'm back on my feet now and I can see things very clearly, it was always doomed to fail, I wasn't in love, it was pure infatuation and if something seems too good to be true, it probably is.

Having said all of that, if it wasn't for the barista I would still be living with a man I had grown to hate and wrecking my childrens lives by letting them watch him destroy me, and my confidence, very slowly, day by day.

I thought after that experience I'd be sworn off women, but I'm not so sure now. I recently started talking to a lovely girl, but thats another story for another post, because this one is long enough.

So OP, you might find the answer to your problem isn't something you decide, it's just something that happens, you have no control over it and everything will be ok in the end. If it's not ok, then it probably isn't the end

Dear followyourjoy (sorry I don't know how to make it bold on here)

Wow..thank you again for taking the time to write to me. How long has it taken you to learn all this stuff? I read and reread what you have written and really want to feel it all, it seems like the perfect solution for me, i get tiny bits of it and then lose it. I am trying to understand the feelings and our attachment to them. Initially my feelings I believe did not come from my head, very early on in our friendship when it was, I believed, just a friendship, I noticed that I would start to blush in her company, it would start on my kneck and spread up my face, this really confused me and freaked me out, I couldn't stop it happening, I had and still have no control over it. Then if she was near me I couldn't breath properly. (it's amazing I am still alive!) I feel sick quite often after I have spent time with her, or have the most chronic head ache. I do feel that it is beyond my head sometimes and the pull is coming from somewhere deep within me, i have felt it impossible to ignore. I actually haven't thought or fantasised about having a sexual relationship with her, I have thought and wanted to kiss her properly, i think this is driven by wanting to feel close to her because I didn't know that there was any other route my feelings could go. She has kissed me a few times briefly on the lips and once when we were out with some other mums, we found ourselves on our own for literally a few seconds, she was staring at me and I literally had an out of body experience, I took her head in my hands and kissed her on the mouth, not a proper kiss but a quick kiss on the lips, but then made a flippant comment about how great it was to spend time with her, I didn't have time to gauge her reaction as other people came back, but later on when I dropped her home, we kissed on both cheeks and then completely effortlessly on the lips, she then asked me if I wanted to join her exercise class! I guess because I said I liked spending time with her. FFS. I am going to get the book you recommend, if I can find a way to avoid having to talk to this person about what's going on then that would be really fantastic. My husband is away on business a lot so I am often on my own, it would make sense that this has happened possibly because of that, but because no one has ever had an affect on me like this, it has deeply got me.

Hi Mangomay, It looks like 'Barista' really did come into your life for a reason and great that you seem OK with it all now and that you are moving forward with your life. Quite an episode and so brilliant that you can speak about it now like you do. It sounds like you are in a great place to meet someone else. Good luck x

P.S mumincov, this isn't my thread, go for it!

Nudging in here but have to say I truly believe people come into your life for a reason and when you least expect them...to throw new light on a situation. I never used to think this but I do now. Loved reading your story Mangomay- I was gripped from start to finish (probably with mouth open). Amazing how we are drawn to certain people and their energy; it's so unique to the people involved. Outta - I think you have to let go and and don't think too much about possible outcomes or whatever. Maybe saying something - in a nonchalant, lighthearted way - will allay the intensity of being in her company.

Hi Outta, I was a tt regular for a while, under a different name. I was in a very similar 'does she...doesn't she' thing with a work colleague. We never went as far as kissing, although we came close. I think. I agree with so much of what Followyourjoy has written: the woman i fell for was (i won't say 'is') a mirror for my submerged sexuality & as much as she has toyed with me, she's also shown me a fundamental truth about myself.

I actually spent a lot of time with her over the past few days, but as part of a large group. Some of that time her male dp was there & seeing them together reminded me of why i'd been so confused previously. But rather than starting to unravel the whole thing in my head again, i'm trying to accept there are some things i'm just not supposed to understand.

Having said that the 6 month period of my crush has been one of the most intense moments of my sexual & emotional life. I just wasn't aware of how much i'd compartmentalised sex & romantic love previously. Sorry if tmi, but at some point in my adolescence i must have decided that i would only touch myself whilst thinking about the female form but that i would only have romantc relationships with men. Therefore i was straight. Talk about cognitive dissonance!

Also, as i'd only ever fancied reasonably feminine looking women, & all the lesbians i knew were quite masculine, i just didn't see how i could've been of the same sexuality as them. I get it now, of course.

Anyway, i remain unhappily marrie with two young dcs d & wonder if real change is possible for me.

Outta ~ I've been on a spiritual quest for about 20 years and have had many experiences that have lead me to do a lot of inner searching and I have always been interested in the truth beyond the surface "reality" on offer. As Carl Jung says "He/she who looks outside dreams, and he/she who looks inside awakens". Understanding your true self is a journey which will take a lifetime I believe. To really walk the path of an awakened soul, is not for the faint-hearted....as soon as you start the transformation,your shadow side will come and roar at you, but it's simply "stuff" that needs healing, it can be very intense....but at the same time, it's the most rewarding thing you can ever do in life. To be totally "in the flow", to let go of any control over your life yet to have total trust that you will always be supported by the universe, that takes courage. In our society many people are living a half truth, and this doesn't interest me. To be fully true to yourself, to accept every part of you, this is a wonderful expansive way of living. Life is full of uncertainties, and life is insecure. Most people think they have security but it is just an illusion because the very nature of life is that there is no permanence hence no security. Marriage isn't security, money isn't security, possessions aren't security.
I could ramble on for hours on my favourite subject matter, & I'm in bed ill at the mo so I could get carried away! OK, so your feelings are very intense for this wiq..and it sounds like hers are too. I didn't realise how much of a physical reaction you get from her...does sound like you have it bad. There's no point in going over all this in your mind, as I keep saying....you can't TRUST that monkey mind. Next time you see her, be aware of what's happening in your body, drop the mind, focus on the body. Just be "in your awareness".....keep tabs on yourself. Try and enjoy what life is offering you, don't resist it...go with it and don't beat yourself up for having the feelings. Remember, nothing is right or wrong it just "is'; life is a journey to navigate and there is no map, which let's face it...thank god there isn't....life would be so boring if it was predictable.

Bang ~ Of course real change is possible!!You do have the courage to change your situation, it is there inside you, you just have to find it......don't waste your life in an unhappy marriage.

Mango ~ I just loved the way you wrote your story, very compelling. Hope you are happier now, do tell us the story of the new girl in your life!

"I just wasn't aware of how much i'd compartmentalised sex & romantic love previously. Sorry if tmi, but at some point in my adolescence i must have decided that i would only touch myself whilst thinking about the female form but that i would only have romantc relationships with men. Therefore i was straight. Talk about cognitive dissonance!"

BangOn - this. Just, this. I totally get what you mean and I did this same thing as well for so many years.

followyourjoy, liking your posts very much.

OneMoreGo and BangOn - me too. I was in such denial for so long. I recently told my husband about my attraction to women - and we're struggling on for the moment. But it can't go on like this forever.

I guess my decision was pretty easy to make. My partner was a ghastly man and he had to go regardless, my lovely barista (we'll call her B to save my typing fingers) just gave me the courage and self belief to actually say the words and mean it. There was no love in our relationship, none at all and it's not healthy to raise children in such an environment. If I was happily (or unhappily) married I don't know if I'd have acted the same. I can't imagine how difficult it is to deal with these sort of feelings and having to take your dh's feelings into consideration. I guess my situation was also made easier by the fact that B was giving me obvious signals and making it very clear she was interested. Her excuse for acting odd in the beginning was that I'm 'very girly' and she didn't think I would 'swing that way' so she didn't want to get to know me in case her feelings got the better of her and she tried it on and I ended up hating her.

The new girl is an equally complicated situation, but I have my head screwed on a bit more firmly this time so I think I can deal with it all a bit better! She used to be friends with B's ex (we'll call her Bex!) but when B and Bex got back together, Bex turned very unpleasant towards her, most likely because she's an unpleasant type of gal and was finally showing her true colours. After all, she slapped me in my face, in front of a bunch of mums from DS nursery, and she brought the new girl along for back up, in case I got lairy. That's not my style though so if she wanted a fight, she really picked the wrong girl!
So the story goes, I was in the pub with a few friends and the new girl was there with her mums and her mums friends (some of who are vague acquaintances of mine as they have children at the school)
Anyway, new girl taps me on the shoulder and asks if she can talk to me

And??? mangomay what happens next? Basil Brush tail wagging expectantly

Dammit, posted too early....
Asks if she can talk to me outside. As you can imagine my back was up immediately, I was half expecting her to start shouting in my face as her lovely friend had done. But she followed me outside and said she wanted clear the air, explained that she hasn't known Bex was going to slap me and she felt awful. She'd wanted to say something for a while but I ha always avoided making eye contact with her in the street, to avoid another confrontation. She explained how Bex had been acting since her and B got back together and she had no intention of speaking to either of them again. I kept my part of the conversation totally nonchalant, I avoided passing judgement on Bex and B's behaviour, and mostly just nodded and smiled. Anyway we chatted a bit as the night went on and as I was leaving I asked if she was on FB (which she isn't) and she said let me take your number. So we've been texting for a few days an I get that lovely feeling when I see a message from her on my phone. Here's the complicated bit (bits actually!)
1: there's every chance if Bex finds out we talk she'll have something to say to me, which I want to avoid at all costs
2: new girl's mum is friends with a lot of people I know from school and nursery. Is that gonna be weird? Her mum knows we chat, new girl explained the situation to her mum in the pub that night and her mum was very smiley and friendly towards me after that.
3: the worst one. New girl is 19. I'm 26. Yes, I know. But here's my thinking. I'm not looking for a serious relationship at the minute. My children need stability after a stressful year, and that comes before anything. But if its just for me? If its just about the cuddles and the DVDs and the take always in the evening, if she's just someone to make the cold and lonely nights a little less so, is there really any harm in it? New girl knows my situation and she understands that there wouldn't be a future for us, not anytime soon anyway.
Have I lost my mind? Again. Over a pretty girl, again....

Because she is immensely pretty. Devastatingly so....

Hi followyourjoy

I have ordered the book and am waiting for it to arrive. In the mean time can you help me with a couple of things? This is all really new to me and to be honest in the past I have never imagined myself getting to know my spiritual self I wasn't sure that I believed in that. I have never thought that there is life after death and I guess I have always tried to find answers to fix situations, I have never been comfortable leaving things hanging in mid air. But... I am open to anything right now as I feel like I have lost my connection to myself, my metaphorical train has completely derailed and I am going top speed off course. You have said that this is where things get interesting and that it is a gift to be in a state of discomfort. How can you just switch yourself off? How can I just be present with this person and not react to what is happening, how can I drop the mind and just be present in my heart? When she kisses me on the lips, how can I turn my mind off, when it starts going into overdrive of, did that just happen?, did she really do that? what is she trying to tell me? what does this all mean? If you switch it all off aren't you just becoming numb? Sorry... I must sound so naive, I would love to have your insight on all this. Are you really able to treat everything that comes into your life with so much ease?

Its funny but this person did mention Angels the other day, people that come into your life to guide you or show you something, they can also hurt you too she said. I hope you are feeling better :)

Hi Outta ~ Great that you've ordered the book! will try my very best to answer your questions......
Things are certainly going to get interesting for you! This is not about "switching yourself off" rather switching the mind off (the false self/ego, monkey chattering entity that is the mind). A good exercise for you to do, is to start trying to identify your true awareness behind the chattering ego mind. This mind that chatters to you, is NOT YOU! Try and identify this as the ego, and see that if you tell it to STOP, what is left beneath it? Do "you" disappear when your mind's endless chattering stops? No, what remains is your true self, that is at peace and just "IS". Once you have identified the false mind, you will be ready to deal with it's nonsense.

In order to switch your mind off, you need to be accepting the present moment, saying "YES" to it, not resisting it, and be in your awareness....watch your breath...feel your heart beating, but don't THINK about it. Just surrender to what is, stop trying to control it. Be in the here and now and your mind won't do the running away thing. Keep practicing this, notice how much crap you tell yourself everyday and learn to laugh at yourself and the ego, learn to tell it to STOP!

Believe me, I don't treat everything that comes into my life with ease at all, but I realize deeply that we are here to learn, and that every situation has something to teach us. Once you accept this, rather than resisting it, you can learn to embrace the difficulties as inevitably they provide us with our greatest opportunities to grow. I know it can be painful at the time, but that's life...the pain doesn't stay around, soon will come the joy.