"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

Thread opener here: webaunty.co.uk/mumsnet/
You may need to right-click and 'unblock' it after downloading it.

It's January 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see <a class="break-all" href="http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/440839-but-we-took-you-to-stately-homes-a-thread-for" target="_blank">original thread here</a> (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn?t have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

Follow up to pages first thread:

I?m sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don?t claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

I have cut and pasted this because I think it is fab. Just in case anyone misses the link.

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

hi Rose, just wanted to say that you mention 'repressed anger' and by acknowledging it, it must mean it is bubbling up to the surface now being the time to deal with these things and extinguish them - I mean, My therapist told me that once the feelings come, and wont leave for weeks, it is a sign that your conscious needs to tackle them, face them, and once you have figured out the best way for you to do that, then what I did anyway, was to let them float away like a million balloons, never to be seen again

i wont go on about the latest drama - an email based drama since I've kept phone off all week since I told mother my battery died -yes new nasty drama between my sister and mother, each of them forwarding their emails TO ME. I want OUT of it! Havent been replying to any of them. I have my own little family to concentrate on, so I'm taking them for a day out picnic and scooters at a national park tomorrow.

Hoping nature will soothe my tormented soul tomorrow

Hope you all get a good nights sleep tonight. (I have little DS beside me snoring as he had a cough today and wanted to sleep in my bed) I cant sleep yet though as I'm so actually scared of my mother and what she will do next. I'm 35 soon too. You would think I would have figured it out by now.
Oh and yes I did the dutiful thing and posted a MD card. A tesco one. But still. Yes. Box ticked. People pleaser that I am.

Oopla - just wanted to say thanks for putting in words exactly how I feel where you said that you withdraw completely from your mother to protect yourself from her hurting you, or communicate on a superficial level.

this is what I've been wanting to figure out for a long time, and couldnt quite express it properly. Thank you. Someone else does exactly what I do - withdraw. It is reassuring to know that.

and Rose, I can also identify with your not wanting to open door in case it's a criminal etc. when my 2nd was about 8mths old DH booked a lovely break away to a country house cottage, but I spent all night every night lying wide awake in the childrens room with them, 'in case' someone broke into the cottage. It happened 3 more times anytime we went somewhere new. I just cant explain it.

(I've been on a low dose of AD's for the past year now, as I just had enough of the craziness and the migraines and I am a different person - less anxious, zero migraines, less irritable, able to think more clearly and organise my home and life more easily)

Think the door thing is cause I once had a genuine worry as ex had bailiffs coming to the door but that unease has never gone away. I was once an optimist but so many ridiculous/ awful things HAVE happened I have a tendency to think the worst.

My MIL is a main irritant I feel harassed by her. She looked after DS 1 3 days a week and will look after baby 3 days so will always be involved (we couldn't pay child are so I know it's our fault). However, she texts nearly everyday to ask what we are doing. If I don't respond I getFB message. She also likes or comments on 90% ofmy FB things and 'kills the thread' when I'm communicating with friends/colleagues. I find her so suffocating. I do think I'm right to be irritated as DH would be if my Dad hogged his twitter account, but this is a classic example of something that makes me seethe!

I have wondered about AD I dint think I'm depressed but I am so irritable and quite negative and wish I wasn't.9

i used to think it was lack of sleep for me, but it wasnt, mainly it was just that having my own kids brought back so many awful memories of family life, and my quest to make sure my own parenting was nothing like hers made me v anxious & let's face it depressed. Much better now. Something to do with the AD's balancing the neural pathways in my brain combined with a LOT of talking on here (on here more than therapist is much cheaper & better tbh) But keep talking - it will all help to get it out

I also started writing fiction too - clears my mind

You MIL needs to step back, boundaries sound blurred. She should bugger off your FB commenting like that is annoying and stalkerish, my DM does that.

I think I also don't know which bit to start with.
There are 4 areas
Ex- caused huge anxiety and poss PTSD
Sister-self absorbed eg never mentioned my pregnancy AT ALL beyond congrats. Nightmare bridesmaid in 2011- only get on if it's about her. Constantly compares us -both appearance and personality (I never join in with this)
Mum- get on ok. She is nothing like some Mums on here but she is always right/ lacks empathy. Asked her not to make DS a cake last month as I was doing and ahe showed up with a shop bought anyway!
MIL- huge boundary issues. Takes over my role with kids- others have commented on this. Try to preempt.
Eg let DH take 5 week old BF son for an hour when I wasn't well so she could see both kids/arrange weekly contact. Next visit for Sunday dinner she sat me at table with DH and FIL and table not pulled out against wall. DS1 had table in living room and she said she was eating in there with him. We usually all eat together so I did ask why (spare chair in shed) but I think it was a ploy to get alone time with
DS2 as if I'd kept him with me in his carseat he'd have been behind us (as table not pulled out) so she had him with her I. The lounge.
She also sat me furthest from the lounge door- told me I was in wrong seat when I sat down.
Might not sound much but I was pissed off at the fact that DS1 should have been sitting with us at table as usual for a family meal and I didn't enjoy my meal listening to my new baby grizzling in the lounge.
Do you thinkmy annoyance is OTT- I don't trust my own judgement as can be so bloody negative!

DH (awake with baby) has suggested I join twitter without my real name/ new email address and no profile photo of me so I think I'll do that. I did point out that none of our other close friends have their MIL stalking them on FB but we both think would cause too much hurt if said anything. Think I might stop posting- but then why should I.

i think FB has the option of hiding certain things from certain people otherwise create a new account, PM your friends and tell them to refriend you on the new fb account new name - like your first name and a madeup funny surname - then make sure your photo settings are not public. May work.

No I dont think youre OTT - MIL sounds petty and controlling. Have youmreadmthe Toxic In Law book by Susan Forward? On Amazon you can get it. May help?

Rose "we both think would cause too much hurt if said anything"

It's THIS that is causing you your problems. THIS is what your MIL is banking on.

OK so you can't confront, but you can filter you MIL out and set her to public posts only, and make everything else Friends only.

OR set up a new FB and leave that one to go into dots.

You know what she is doing, SHE knows what she is doing, heck your DH even knows what she is doing.

Long term you DO need to find paid childcare and bugger the consequences. She won't support your role in the family when you are present, you think she'll support you when you are NOT? You run the risk of being rubbished to your DC by her and you know it. she is NOT a suitable child minder, better that you give up work entirely and stay and look after them yourself than entrust them to her.

You can't do NOTHING here. This woman IS toxic and will poison everything she has contact with.

Rose Hissy is right, but I think, like me, you don't want to hear it now. People told me the only solution was something I didn't want to hear because it all seemed to big to deal with and I was scared of her reaction. But it was true. You don't want to offend her and you don't see how you can manage without her doing childcare, but you can and in the long run reducing contact with her is the only thing that will work. You need her off your FB (thank FUCK my DM doesn't use FB) by changing your privacy settings and you need to work out how not to have her doing childcare. By the way, it was childcare that finally blew my relationship with DM apart because she couldn't/wouldn't keep her fucking beak out and doing DH down about it stop interfering and it precipitated the mother of all rows and much lower contact since then.

I had a very long thread about it all:
www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/1565077-My-mother-hates-my-husband-long

I feel sick. After much thought during a great day out with dcs at national park i have written email in a 'kind' tone explaining that the years of my sister getting hit of an evening are the reason for my sisters anger towards my mother. I had to write it as mother enailed me again saying oh i truly dont understand what ive done to upset your sister!

I am going to order pizza with dcs as i feel emotionally shot. But in some ways free that ive finally spoken up after all these yrs. we just cant pretend it never happened i cant live a lie thanks for listening & letting me air my confused feelings

Agree totally with goodtobetter and hissy that going it without mil re childcare is best - they are your kids you know whats best. Worry is that you will end up pleasing mil over everyone else even yourself. You know best rose, and life poss simpler without mil input

Well done old toys enjoy the pizza

Actually I am not sure if I have written on here before a long long time ago but I know I lurk around a lot looking for parallels with my childhood experiences. I am often horrified by how extreme and distressing your experiences were/are and don't recognise them in my own background.

However...

I know I had a dysfunctional and not a particularly happy childhood although I never felt 'unloved' and I always had what I needed, as in food, clothing etc. Me and my siblings were never neglected in that fashion. I have happy memories as well and I think I have spent most of my adult life focusing on them in an attempt to convince myself I did have a good childhood. I have also justified, compartmentalized and minimized certain behaviours so as to 'normalize' my background.

This has served me well for at least 12 years and enabled me to cope until recently I have found, particularly since having a child, certain memories or emotions coming back to me, as if rising to the surface. Having a child has also made me see both my parents in a different light and not necessarily a positive one. It has made me realise that my mother is not quite the person I thought she was and it has changed our relationship considerably. I have found I have an awful lot of anger/unresolved feelings towards my mum and I am terrified I will have the same effect on my dd. I have never had any kind of counselling or talked to anyone apart from my DH and there is only so much support he can offer. Part of the issues I had growing up was being made to feel that my feelings were often not considered valid or important so I have great difficulty in talking about my experiences without thinking they were somehow my fault but I am taking the plunge and writing here! Anyone else constantly told they were 'being awkward' 'Fussing' 'Making waves' etc? It means I can often justify quite mean behaviour and that is a hinderance when it comes to dealing with childhood trauma.

It's not normal is it to feel utterly emotionally drained and fragile after a visit from your parent, is it? My mum pays us long visits which part of me welcomes as I do love her, we do get on, share a lot of interests and so on, she is a lovely grandmother (nothing like how she was as a parent) and my DD adores her. But after about three to four days I feel exhausted and emotional by her behaviours. It takes a HUGE amount of patience and willpower to cope with her. SHe has recently left and I feel close to tears and like I want to hide under the duvet and not come out. I actually feel ill. She remarked today that I always seem to be coming down with something just as she leaves but it dawned on me that it is stress that is making me unwell.

I realise i haven't talked much about her behaviour but I fear once I start I won't be able to stop. It is overwhelming trying to sort it in my head into some kind of linear fashion that would be understandable to others. I'm not even sure I understand her myself but I think in summary she is quite a selfish and damaged person and I have been justifying it for years because of her experiences with my dad. I think I might stop now for a bit. Sorry.

No need to apologise... We all get you.. Keep talking/writing and maybe counselling? Better out than in...

I just feel a wreck. Like I've kept it together for so long and now I can't handle it anymore. I just want my DD and my new arrival due v soon to never feel or have the experiences I did as a child so part of me thinks i need to address them and understand them so as to avoid making the same mistakes. Or something...

Hi Nodecentnicknane - i could have written your post a yr ago. Only today have i found closure and my voice as an adult at 34 dealing with her and her years of nasty games. It takes time. Be kind to yourself.

I've finished the book children of the self absorbed. Oh shit, it seems I'm toxic too! Lots of work to do! There is hope ...

I get you! OMG! So similar. I thought all was rosy until i had my own dcs then the bad memories started. I minimised for months. Then i woke up. It was not acceptable to parent like they did. The scars take a long time to heal. But you will get there.

That was for Nodecentnickname sorry

V sensible to want to avoid passing it on, i know what you mean and often feel i fail dismally . Are you ready for counselling do you think? Hard time for you being pregnant too. But new beginnings, new chances.. And you have awareness.

Not necessarily unschoolmum have you seen the reviews on amazon? People saying that the author automatically assumes that children of narcissists will go on to become them too when actually it's fairly unlikely.

I haven't read it so can't truthfully comment but I am a bugger for taking to heart every new thing I read