"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's January 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see <a class="break-all" href="http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/440839-but-we-took-you-to-stately-homes-a-thread-for" target="_blank">original thread here</a> (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn?t have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

Follow up to pages first thread:

I?m sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don?t claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

I have cut and pasted this because I think it is fab. Just in case anyone misses the link.

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

Bedtime that's exactly how I feel.

Hi yellowotter I'm posting and running right now as I'm out on a course tonight but I'll read your post later x

I was predicting the text reply Midwife just so absolutely predictable! '[we will give]... if we 'see' her' just classic isn't it! Sorry

The cards are thin on the ground here too, as I am a lone parent and nc with family. shame for your DD and shame on them!!! grrrrrr....

YellowOtter hello! I could have written your post myself. Know exactly what you mean about the fear of violence being as bad/worse. When you said about your dad threatening to knock your heads together that brought back a memory.

It isn't normal and you're not a fraud. If you have a chance for counselling I'd jump at it - I guess even one session would give you an idea of how/if it would help.

I've been lurking lately, hello again everyonee :) Been thinking about letting myself FEEL things in order to repair a bit. Can't afford counselling but considering going back over diaries (I've kept a diary since I was 14) to see if that helps in acknowldging some memories / realising how different I am nowand how much better off I am not being in touch with my mum. Not sure if that would be a huge mistake though.

My brother & I also had our heads knocked together (not just a threat) who in their right mind makes children head but each other? There was also a stick in the corner of the dining room & a belt hanging from a chair. My mother actually washed my mouth out with soap when I was pre school for saying "bloody L" - I was copying them & didn't know what it meant. When I was approx 3- 4 my mother packed a bag for me & sent me up the road telling me to leave home for being naughty. A neighbour found me & brought me back.

Yes, me too midwife isn't it? Inly just realised how v wrong it was to have happened to me despite not ever dreaming of doing to my kids- so dangerous, horrible!! My df threatened regularly and did a few times...just told dh who's aghast!

jaw dropping!

Thank you FairyFi, unschoolmum and craftycottontail. I think I really needed to hear that this is not acceptable behaviour. I feel like I don't have a sense of perspective on any of this at the moment.

I'm sorry for triggering sad memories Midwife and Salbertina. It is a really horrible thing.

Does anyone else sometimes not know if something happened or not? Since reading about the actual head-banging that Midwife and Salbetina experienced, I've been having this horrible uneasy half-memory that my Dad actually did do it to me and my sister, but it is vague and hard to grab hold of if you see what I mean. It makes me doubt my own sanity and reinforces the horrible sicky feeling that this could all just be a figment of my imagination.

Absolutely, YO, drives me mad. Really sorry to hear what you've been through. Awful, isnt it? Am so as gadnt previously thought of df as abusive, merely dm, saw him as enabler but actually was worse. I think. Doubt self and memory also

Yes I also think maybe it didn't actually happen but was just threatened? But I remember how much it hurt.

YellowOtter - "Does anyone else sometimes not know if something happened or not?"

YES. I was reading a bit of an old diary yesterday and came across something I'd written about police visiting our house when my mum and brother's arguing hit such a violent peak that one of them had called the police on the other. Apparently I've suppressed a whole memory about the police talking to me on my own, questionning me about what happened and telling me not to have allegiences and just tell them.

I have no memory of that at all! It obviously happened because I've written about it in some detail but it's completely gone out of my head. I can't picture it - where the conversation took place, what the weather was like, anything that would normally come back with a memory.

I think our brains have amazing ability to block out things that are just too painful to cope with - not always helpful when you're in a space where you're ready to confront and deal with things. It doesn't mean any fragment of those memories is less valid or that the event didn't really happen.

Hello Stately Homers. I've been away, because things have been quiet, but now in some need of help and advice!

I posted before about my mother leaving her will at my house after I'd expressly, over a period of 5 years, told her not to and more subtly over about 12 years prior to that said I didn't want to be a part of organising, as well as arranging her funeral (she's not and never has been seriously ill).

I basically haven't spoken to her since (and it's flipping BRILLIANT!), but now I have just received the following email:

I was acutely aware from your email (re my genuine attempt to be helpful to you by [doing X] at Christmas)in Jan that you were very unhappy with me, and it saddened me hugely, but it has now been 2 months since I waved you off at new year and I have not had much communication from you nor have I had any contact with my grandson or pictures of him since then. Is there something we need to sort out?

Part of the reason for no pics (we live far apart ) is that I've been so exhausted from my pregnancy and looking after a young toddler, that I've barely taken any and I haven't sent any to anybody since before Christmas, so that's not specific to her, although I'm certainly not rushing to get any to her either.

I don't want to get into it with her, because I don't see what the point is. After 5 years of saying that I don't mind if she arranges her will, thanking her for being thoughtful, but being explicit in my wish to not have a copy of it, she just went ahead and left it for me for when I got back from holiday. I don't have the energy to explain why that upsets me - although, I would have thought it was obvious!! There's also other stuff and things from my childhood before all this which I'm in therapy (again) for, and I would bother to confront her if I really thought it would change anything, but I'm pretty certain her response (gaslighting) would make me feel worse.

So, what can I write, that doesn't antagonise her, doesn't give her the answers she 'seems' to be looking for, just dismisses her 'nicely'? I don't want to go officially NC, I just want to keep her at bay . If things go the way DH and I plan, we won't see her again before October.

Pianna it's infuriating isn't it? I completely understand. You're right that it's pointless trying to get her to see your pov, but at the same time you do need to be heard. Can you use yr therapy sessions to say what you need to, and then hold your boundaries in your real-life communication?

I would have thought an email along the lines of 'I've been very tired because I'm pregnant and have a toddler so haven't been in touch with anyone' would do fine. And without any apology for that, or any other explanation. Pretty much a one-line email. What do you think?

FairyFi Just rushing in, can't post from phone as BB doesn't work if threads are too large.

i wanted to come back to you on the theory of an abusive childhood grooming us for abuse.

You said " I don't think it follows that every abusive bloke only 'finds' abused women to hook up with, or that only previously abused women find themselves in abusive relationships, all the stories I have come across show that both enter abusive relationships unknowingly, and actually shown that those with good parenting experiences are less protected from them? "

Yes non-abused children DON'T have the experience to spot a dangerous partner, HOWEVER, when they are treated like shit, they KNOW that it's wrong, they have more self esteem than we do and are able to see that this behaviour is alien to everything they know.

OK so there are exceptions, where truly hideous men manage to con naive and trusting women, but often they have the support network, friends, family and people around them to give them the heads up, or ask questions.

Our 'lot' have a vested interest in our pain, so they watch and get emotionally turned on by our suffereing or the increase of power THEY get when ours is compromised.

Pianna We told you to ignore her and you did. well, she didn't get her 'FEED' did she, so this is why she is stirring the issue now. she didn't get the hysterics she needed from you, and knows now that it'd be worse than it was back then, given your current condition. Instead of letting it go, she is actually stirring it up to deliberately stress you out at a time in your life that is more stressful than pretty much anything else. She is despicable. utterly despicable.

If you don't have time for anyone, then you have nothing to add to what you said already. She is shifting the blame back onto you. If she had actually addressed any of the issues in your email, it'd be different.

I'd say either ignore, or reply with I'm busy at the moment, but if you are in any doubt as to what needs sorting out, please re-read the email I sent you before on the matter. To send fresh's email is fine, but it's not standing your ground.

Who cares if you DO antagonise her? you have every right to be offended and angry at her riding rough shod over your feelings. She treats you abysmally.

I remember you Pianna and pleased that you got a nice long break from her awful insistence tactics! .. She's put a lot into that considering that she's not been in touch all that time herself. I support the email fresh suggested, but I'm not sure any answer will be the right one here, possibly only hers? She will be anatangonised unless she gets the answer she is looking for (whatever that may be?!?!).

Thanks for the info hissy I recognise the different views.

CraftCotton. agree that we bloke things out. My husband has almost no memory of his childhood. But there was significant emotional abuse.

YellowOtter, if you think it happened then it did. It was Freud that created the idea that are memories are false and are made up as a result of human drives. He has done a huge disservice to us. Actually, he discovered that most of his patients had been abused and when he published this idea he was shunned so he withdraw his idea and decided to go along with the abuse being fantasies.

I'll try to trust more in my memories of events then. What I find most confusing is that I have managed to be so unaware of the abuse I suffered. I left home a decade ago, why has it all started to come to the surface now? Weird.

I have made contact with my local counselling service as a starting point to working through some of these problems. I hope I will start to feel a bit less off-kilter when I am able to work through it all in a safe place, and that I'll be able to compartmentalise these feelings, so I can get on with other things without it invading the rest of my life!

I've been gradually reducing contact with both of my parents, but I'm feeling guilty leaving my Mum on her own with him. He does nothing to support her, and I think over the years my sister and I have tried to take it on instead. But I can't just keep on playing happy families with her any more, and I'm not yet ready to try to confront them (not sure if I ever will be!). How do you deal with the guilt?

Pianna, sorry to hear that your Mum is causing you problems - I am much too new to all this to be able to give any useful advice, so here is and instead!

Pianna, my Mum is also asking about my kids (I have been very low contact for about a year). She sent me a thank you card for her birthday present. In it she went on about how fantastic all the grand nieces and nephews are. She then asks me "is it okay to ask about my grandchildren?, are they up to their chronically age in English math and science?". She disapproved greatly that I home educate my children. She is not interested in my daughters interest in music and my sons interest in computers. This card followed an email from Mum and Dad saying I was a failure as a mother, my son is a horrible child and that they plan to leave money to just my daughter. It is hard to provide them with any information about the kids. I am not sure what to do as I don?t want to behave in a toxic manner with them but I don?t want to remesh myself with them or get ill.

YellowOtter, just ten year since you left them. It has taken me 24 years to see how toxic my parents are!
.

Thank you, thank you! I get so angry that I just want to reply in the heat of the moment, but experience tells me that it's never the best idea.

Hissy You're right about stirring at a time when I need to relax. I'm also in the middle of an international move and have some health problems aside from the pregnancy that could complicate the pregnancy and she knows this. During the last pregnancy she stirred up a different sort of (but much more stressful) sh*tstorm and this time I'm not falling for it! I can't tell her that it's in the last email though, because the last email didn't actually detail any of my problems with the will, it was just on this other subject that she's bringing up now. That was an issue at the time, but I don't care about it particularly now. I didn't mention the will then, in fact I haven't mentioned it at all AND it is now shredded , because she wouldn't pay attention then and won't now (hardly going to admit that she'd ignored me for five years - minimum - and now she's genuinely sorry!).

The only reason I care if she is antagonised is because if she is, then it's something that she'll hold over me every time I see her (albeit not that frequently) and when I'm feeling weak and vulnerable will hit me with, either in a nasty way, or by being a martyr. It's happened often before and I just don't want to have to deal with it again. I don't actually care if she feels bad, or whatever, I just care how that will eventually manifest itself towards me!

For that reason, I think that I might go along fresh's suggestion. I had been heading that way myself, but mine would have had a token "I'm sorry" in there, which I'm not, but like it better without it!

unschool I argue back and forward with myself about whether grandchildren are a right or a privilege. At the moment I'm on the fence, but leaning ever so slightly to privilege. It's an easy, easy hook they have. Clearly, my mother sees them as a right, by the way that she mentioned "my grandson" rather than his name - it would have made all the difference in that sentence (and I know she thought about what she wrote before sending!).

YellowOtter thank you! I read your post about violence and the threat of violence. Something I've just come to acknowledge is that if an adult carried out an act of violence on you, one hit, banging heads together once, then as a child, we have no way of knowing that they won't do what they threaten in the future and the fear that comes along with that is every bit as terrifying as actually carrying out the threat, in part, but not only, because it underlines just how vulnerable you are. It may not leave physical marks, but psychologically, I know that it has done for me.

"She will be antagonised unless she gets the answer she is looking for (whatever that may be?!?!)."

I think she'll be antagonised WHATEVER you do tbh. People like that WILL get the reaction they want, as they won't stop until they do.

My suggestion is to do NOTHING. Take a leaf from a DV victim's book. You can't win, so no point in even playing.

To quote Pixar (Madagascar) Smile and Wave, Smile and Wave.

Grandchildren are a privilege. If they were a right, the courts would be forcing access, they can't.

Refuse to be drawn in, No is a complete sentence....

Pianna, one more thing, when you have been through DV, as I have and others here too, you see mirror patterns emerging between FWPartners and FWParents.

In a DV relationship, it's frankly BORING surprisingly common how abusers seem to pile on the pressure when we are at breaking point.

What you have to try to do is face the worst that she can realistically do, and come to terms with it.

Why does she need you to see her will so badly, what point is she trying to make to you, do you know?

Maintain your path Pianna, the more she ramps it up, you can know that the more you are actually WINNING/gaining freedom.

If she gets really awful, refuse to deal with her at all, get H to call her back 'Oh pianna is having a nap atm, is there anything I can help you with...'

Oh and if you scroll back to my ramble the other day, you will see that DM referred to my 7yo DS as 'my grandson'

The Script ain't just for DV and cheating spouses...

Hissy - gosh! I have been thinking about why she needs me to have and see her will (and the other documents relating to serious illness and death) and I'm not sure. It's a good question. I think it's all about how she had to handle a mess when her parents died and she doesn't want to do the same to her children. Which is why I have thanked her in the past. I think she thinks it makes her a 'good parent'. Also, she has mentioned a couple of times that the accountant told her that what she was doing was "wonderful" and he "..wished other people would do the same." and she seemed very, very proud of that.

Haven't seen Madagascar, but I'm loving that quote! That's exactly my game plan!

Good point about facing the worst she can do. I would save a lot of energy if I didn't have to keep running from it - metaphorically at any rate. Just need to spend some time thinking about it though.

Going back to the question about when we knew our families weren't 'right', for me it has been in dribs and drabs. I knew at about age 16 that things weren't right as I had a bit of a breakdown. I told a teacher at school that I was self-harming and she said she would help, but the first thing I had to do was to tell my mother. I replied that I couldn't, because she would be angry with me. The teacher (who was, by the way, lovely) assured me that she wouldn't be, she would just be sad. She gave me her number and told me to call her after I'd told my mother. Well, told her and yes, she was angry with me, very angry. When I told my teacher, I could tell she was really shocked. That kind of shocked me into realising that adults could feel different (nice) things towards me.

The more I deal with the issues that come up for me from my childhood, the more I realise things weren't ok. I recently discovered that I'm a people-pleaser, and where that stems from.

I have also just made contact with some old school friends who I lost touch with after school. It's quite shocking (yes, that word again, but it's the best one!) to see that they have good relations with their parents, to realise that there was SUCH a difference in our childhoods. Nobody knew about it at the time, it was very well hidden. I have told one, who was particularly close, and she was amazed that she'd not known what was going on, even when she was sleeping over.

"She will be antagonised unless she gets the answer she is looking for (whatever that may be?!?!)."

I think she'll be antagonised WHATEVER you do tbh. People like that WILL get the reaction they want, as they won't stop until they do.

No indeed, they will not stop until they get the answer they demand

Ugghhhh - "our grandchildren" etc!!
They're all the same!!
I had a voicemail (phone rang at 10.30am when they know I'm working). Mother - breathless "ill" babyish voice - Midwife, we were terribly hurt by the tone of your text ......" I pressed delete before I heard the rest!
I was terribly fucking hurt by being raped at 12 while they boozed it up & being sent away from home with a little suitcase aged 3 or 4 & moving school every 2 or 3 years to run away from my father's affairs.