"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's January 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see <a class="break-all" href="http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/440839-but-we-took-you-to-stately-homes-a-thread-for" target="_blank">original thread here</a> (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn?t have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

Follow up to pages first thread:

I?m sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don?t claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

I have cut and pasted this because I think it is fab. Just in case anyone misses the link.

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

That's so awful and despite everything, you've tried to maintain a relationship with your Mother and by proxy your SF, as they live together. What an awful experience for you growing up.

I haven't seen this book recommended on here but Anne Dickson's book called A Woman in your own Right has been eye opening for me on assertiveness. It talks about the types of arguments people use to counter you, when you say no. It's been quite liberating for me to read. As I always think I'm the unreasonable one and I'm in the wrong.

I do think Toxic Parents is the best book to begin with but I have found the other book helpful in dealing with my Mum and MIL actually as I used to give in/ be walked over constantly.

If I could just fix my self esteem and confidence by reading a book, I'd be sorted. Truthfully I loathe myself. But I do not know how to fix that.

Just got this text message off my mum. We have been low contact for a while ! I'm cynical
Hi love you are a really lovely person just wanted you to know how special you are x

It messes with your mind. I know it seems nice but I'm cynical ! What's her motives. I think why can't I just accept niceness

I agree bedtime it must be confusing. I too had a text last night from my father. They completely ignored DD3's birthday "because they were too ill" despite a few days before saying they were going to "leave something on the doorstep". Then a text last night "We have both recovered from the flu. When can we see the girls?"
Firstly they both have the annual flu jab but always seem to get flu multiple times a year. They can still go to Tesco's every day to buy finest ready meals & booze. They didn't even manage a text on her birthday never mind a card. She's 9. Birthdays are important to children!!

Hi midwife. It is confusing because she just sends me this out of the blue. Normally I am only special or lovely if I have gone along with something she wants. After not speaking for a few weeks, I rang her on Thurs. I thought id have a chat with her seen as its been a while. It went okay and I got off the phone quick when the conversation dried up as this is when the drama starts. Then tonight just got the text above. It sounds nice and outsiders would think mum was lovely for sending me that but why can I not believe that she says it with sincerity or love for me? That she actually means it. Also I find it hard when people say nice things about me. It's like I'm a bit numb and don't believe the good they say. Coming from my husband too, I just dont believe good things about me! Why?

Midwife - I know what your saying. They probably don't have flu so many times but use this line when they feel like it, but if you ever say anything then Your the bad one! Very frustrating fr you! But nobody can have flu so many times a year. They could have managed a text for your daughter. It's weird how they both have flu at the same time multiple times a year. How convenient. It is hurtful for you and your daughter. If you want to see them, I would suggest you pick a day, place and time that is convenient for you and fits in with your plans seen as they have messed you around! You take control and put them in there place!

My dad and I only communicate via text message and facebook. Thank gawd he's not PA on top of everything else.

Lots of sympathy from me too. I'm so grateful for this thread.

Just wanted to add here.. that my male parent, was EA and PA, both humiliated me, stole boundaries and were painful, but the EA screwed my mind and soul.

If you've suffered EA you've suffered too much... not to minimise what you have been through. A punch you can see coming, its obvious and easier to process.

Thoughts are with you all xx

Marissab, Good job!

Sunnywithflowers, I have deep rooted anger which clouds my daily judgements. Last week, after my parents said they would be leaving something for my daughter in their Will and not my son, I took something my Mum and Dad bought me into the garden and smashed it up with a hammer. As I smashed it I told them what I thought of them (without their presence). I felt much better after. It seemed like a useful way to get the anger out. Usually, I internalise the anger and get headaches and stomach aches. This time there were no illnesses and no taking the anger out on innocent people (husband, friends, kids).

Yes tangerine. I agree the texts seem meaningless. No normal communication. My message was just telling me something. I think she does things so I don't forget about her. To rock me and tug at my heart strings. Tbh I feel a bit dead inside. I wish I could get my zest for life back. I think perhaps I'm stressed, i feel numb.

Fairy - I agree with you about EA. it's a silent killer! Others don't see it.

Unschoolmum- I have anger. I feel it internally and I often take this out on people around me. I need to find a way to release it. Your way sounds good but where I live I might get arrested.
Your point about anger is interesting , any ideas on how to release internal anger, without hurting others around you by taking it out on them?

Love to you all!

Sunny- Im grateful for this thread too. I find Facebook and texting can cause more issues, even though I do use theses methods. I am thinking its not a great way because they can be misread, then opens up a whole new can of worms. I try to make them brief. Have you ever had a text argument with parents ? that can go on a long time! and v draining. I have with my mum, so I try to keep it brief now or ignore.

Hi everyone, I hope you don't mind me popping in but I'm after a bit of advice.

My sister struggles a lot with her relationship with our toxic mother. I've had a skim through this thread on a few occasions and have just ordered her the Toxic Parent book mentioned in the OP.

What I really want to do is put together a little pack for her. I'm planning on putting in the book, a highlighter pen, a journal, a pen and some tea/biscuits. I'd love to encourage her to carve out some 'me' time to read through this as I think it will really help. She seems open to the idea and keen to read the book so the extras were just to make it easier for her.

I want to make her a bookmark to use also and am looking for a quote or something inspirational to put on it so that something positive is the last thing she reads when she packs the book away iyswim.

So my question eventually is; do you have any wise words or quotes that have helped you through a similar thing?

and is this idea a bit naff?

Hi Delta - "Fear Obligation Guilt"
These are the tools of the toxic parent.
I repeat that like a mantra!!

lovely idea Delta perfect as she's in the 'mood' as it were.

Definitely the FOG mentioned ^ as a mantra - if that s the only/majority of the reason she's in it still, time for a good think about things?

... and the link to here good wishes to you both x

Thanks guys :)

I'm not sure I'll give away my MN secret yet fairy....

I have read a little about FOG and agree it's what is keeping her (and me) around so that might be helpful to include.

I rally hope she finds the book as helpful as some of you have. It seems like a good starting point anyway.

Hi DUDE - I'd let her order the book herself, and carve out her own time in which to read it: this is her process.

HotDAMN - I am worried it might be pushy but we have spoken about this alot. She said this weekend she needs to stop talking about it and start dealing with it so that's what's prompted me to do this.

But you are right - it is her process. I just wanted her to have some support in starting it.

I know she wants to read the book so maybe I should just keep it at that? I've ordered to her house so it's too late to change that now.

Is the other stuff too much? Like I'm pushing her into doing this?

She said this weekend she needs to stop talking about it and start dealing with it

I think this is key: she needs to start dealing with it. I understand your impulse to be supportive, but what you describe sounds more like spoon-feeding to me. I've always find the best kinds of support to be the ones who cheer me on from the sidelines while I get on with what I want to be doing, iyswim.

I also have to confess that I bought a bunch of books for my sister, recommended a bunch of websites, when she was making noises about how much progress I was making, how I was right about this or that wrt our parents... I wanted her to have the same positive experience as me.

She hasn't read any of those books afaik. She still wistfully makes noises about how much progress I am making, how right I am about this or that, asks me what books and websites I'm using... and then does nothing about it. Because she doesn't want to, because she's not ready. No care package in the world can make her, as I see it.

...none of that is to say that you can't prompt her to focus on what actions she might like to take, through open questions, eg.: "You are so upset about your mother at the moment - what do you think would help you most to work through those feelings?"

Thanks for the advice HotDAMN.

I'll certainly consider what your saying and make sure I don't get too involved.

I have to say though, All I would be doing is providing her with the tools. If she doesn't read it that's down to her. I would never ask for updates or talk about what she is reading. I know it's a process she has to go through herself but I'd like her to know I'm here should she need me. Sending her the book wouldn't really be spoon feeding would it?

I'm all conflicted now but I do appreciate your opinion :)

It's your call, DUDE. If it feels right to you, then it feels right to you.

Are you expecting anything from her though? ie. a transformation that you think would be good for her, or someone to share your point of view wrt your mother? Because those things are for her to manage, and it would be interfering for you to seek them. And you risk disappointment.

Again, I am just speaking as someone who attempted to do the same for my own sister. So feel free to dismiss me as projecting, or being overly prescriptive myself. Good luck to both of you!

Delta- sending her highlighters , notebooks, I think it is too pushy. I can see why you are sending the book but it's her journey. I think you could be in danger of falling out as in dealing with her emotions she may see you as interferering. If she's heard your take on things and the books you have read, she knows your there for her, it is down to her to ask advice/ help/ borrowing books.
I can see why your keen to offer her the book, you want to help but I fear it won't end well. The reason I am on this thread is because of myself same with you, she can choose that path too if she wants too.

HotDAMN - I'm not expecting a transformation in her. She doesn't need to change as far as I'm concerned. If she wants that then it's down to her. We share a point of view wrt to our mother - but we differ on how to deal with it at this stage. We always have and it's never caused us an issue. It's a very personal choice and we respect that.

She asked me for help and I thought this might be a good first step.

I guess I just wanted to do something nice, put together a little package and some encouraging words for her. I obviously approached it from what I would fine helpful/thoughtful (I admit it, I'm a stationary geek...) but I didn't think any of it would be seen as offensive of pushy.

At no point was I going to ask what she'd been writing etc. I just wanted her to know I was thinking of her.

I don't think we risk falling out over it. I haven't read the book. She may well talk to me about what she's read, we are very open about this but we won't differ on interpretations if I've no idea what she's talking about. I understand where you are coming from bedtime but I'm not on this thread for me. I came here to ask for some advice for supporting my sister - and I do appreciate it. I'm not here for myself.

Anyway, there's lots of food for thought here so thank you!

Bedtime, Alice Miller says that when you discover your truth and remember what happened to you instead of repressing it, the anger, guilt, fear etc will start to heal itself. I find that I am too logical about it all. I remember it, dissect it but don't really feel it. The healing only can happen when you can feel it. Although, I have had a number of extremely emotional moments recently when anger and upset have come out in shaking and crying. I think these are the times I truly have allowed myself to feel the pain. Other ideas I am experimenting with is drawing with my non dominate hand. I have also bought some clay and plan to make sculptures of my feelings or to use the clay to release my pain eg stabbing, tearing it etc. Someone also recommended a punch bag with a photo of my Dad or Mum stuck on! It sounds a little weird but I?m not hurting anyone so I think these ideas are worth a go.

I am trying to rediscover and connect with my inner child but at the same time trying to discover how my toxic parents live within me eg my own narcissism, anger, jealously, inability to accept difference etc. I have only just started on this journey so who know what I will discover.