"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's January 2013, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012
November 2012

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see <a class="break-all" href="http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/440839-but-we-took-you-to-stately-homes-a-thread-for" target="_blank">original thread here</a> (December 2007)

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn?t have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

Follow up to pages first thread:

I?m sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don?t claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

I have cut and pasted this because I think it is fab. Just in case anyone misses the link.

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1650915-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

HotDamnLifeisgood: I would suggest regular small gestures over a long period eg start by sending birthday cards, easter cards then short superficial emails/letters, then maybe the odd photo etc. My rule is to only do what does not make me ill although I rarely get this right!

Thanks unschoolmum. In my mind I know you're right. But emotionally, at the moment though, even the thought of any kind of contact with them makes me go . And feel a little bit sick.

I had a thought about what I would be willing to offer them, and the only thing that passed muster was "They can send me their inane e-mails if they want, which I then may or may not read."

I don't want to see them.
I don't want any visits or phone calls.
I don't want to mark any kind of occasions with them, even by card.
I'm basically just prepared to tolerate their existence.

Not really the best start to resuming contact!

HotDamn

Was wondering what brought this train of thought on.

An old Yorkshire saying is "If if doubt do nowt". Also your parents have seemingly made no moves new or otherwise to try and rebuild any sort of relationship.

like you say Hotdamn there's nothing there! Your statements say that you don't want to see them, is this FOG? ..o..Guilt)

Yeah also wondering Hot Damn why you're thinking of re establishing contact?

My uncle: he wrote me an email saying he thinks I "should" re-establish contact, because I will feel guilty if they get sick and/or die, and also, I am in a stronger place emotionally and can deal with them with serenity now.

I told him that if I'm not in contact with my parents, then that means I'm not ready to be, and he has responded to say he respects my ability to make my own decisions.

I think he's being interfering, and to his credit he has backed off, but it's put this on my mind.

No, indeed, no new moves from parents.

(uncle is the one who says I am in a stronger place btw)

Dysfunctional family systems! Gotta love them.

Uncle and aunt are wonderful people who have respected my NC and given me masses of support after I left violent and abusive ex. They know how difficult my parents are, but they love them too.

Uncle had violent alcoholic father of his own. He went low/no contact for ages with his own dad, then had a kind of "woo" group therapy experience (the kind where they break you down to build you up again in an accelerated fashion --google "EST") and it resulted in him making a tear-filled phone call to his father and telling him he loved him. This made it all better for my uncle at the time, it seems, and I think he wishes the same experience for me.

My parents were not horribly abusive, so my NC is hard to justify. I just have your average controlling and undermining mother, and enabling father. Problem is that I then went through a horrible abusive marriage, where I lost a pregnancy and feared for my life. The trauma was great, and I really can't see my parents in a positive light again, knowing that they trained me for this.

sorry Hotdamn for your losing pregnancy and nearly your life

Would just say, your uncle might think he has had the same experience as you, but he hasn't. My brothers think they've had the same experience but they haven't. As the NSDD I was treated differently, the dynamics were crazy between of us and them all individually aswell.

Would you have felt the need if your uncle hadn't raised it and consequently stirred feelings of guilt?

I did feel 'trained' for it, but in balance and hearing others stories, those who come from loving homes where there is good trust and faith in others have fallen into abusive life partnerships too

Hot damn I really empathise with your point about not being able to deal with them anymore after life crises which make you realise that they trained you for those abusive relationships. It was the breakdown of my third marriage that escalated my decision to go low contact & literally feeling sick at the thought of seeing my parents. Your uncle may wish you to have the same experience as him but that's not necessarily best for you. It's your life.

From the bits you've said HotDAMN your parents don't sound average. I don't want to bang the drum for NC or nothing, and I certainly don't want to challenge you when you say they weren't horrify abusive - only you know that. But your post above about what you can offer them is really important. You will know that a lot of children of toxic parents downplay their feelings/their parents behaviour. If you're sure you aren't doing that, fair enough but have a think about whether you're being too hard on yourself.

I don't think you need to make any decisions on your NC 'status' straight away, but I think your approach about this is really sensible and I'm sorry to hear what you've been through :(

Hotdamn,

Think your uncle has sown some seeds of doubt in your mind.

If you are in doubt about making a choice, it?s best not to rely on family and friends to advise you. Seek professional help.

And remember, it?s always much easier to change your mind after deciding not to allow contact than is to change your mind after allowing it.

If your parents were not good parents, err on the side of caution, and if at all in doubt, say no.

Hotdamn,

I agree with forgetmenots, your parents don't sound average. The drip of abusive can be as toxic as any forms of abuse.

Just marking my place again, as this had dropped off my active list.

My Dad's 70th birthday is coming up and my Mum is already placing immense pressure on me to attend and play happily families and I do not know what to do tbh. I got out of Christmas by arranging to see the PIL and saying it was the only time they could do. Very passive aggressive and dishonest really but I didn't want the hassle with Mum. I'm fed up of her brushing it all under the carpet and pretending he didn't really threaten and abuse me last Easter and she is still excusing his behaving, saying he was defending her. I do not want to go. I do not want to see him. My life is so much easier without him in it. I do not miss him at all.

She's also conveniently forgotten what actually happened. It's like she's re-writing history. Is that how she's coped in a marriage with him for over 40 years I wonder?

I don't want to go. I don't want to pretend it never happened and I know he'll just do it again at some point. And depending on his mood it could be a bearable day or awful but it will involve treading on egg shells as ever.

Sorry I haven't read anything on here for weeks, as work is so busy. So I'm sorry for just posting my own issues only.

I am now 2 weeks in to nc with my father. This happened after an appaling incident where he belittled me infront of my neighbours and i was left mortified. I have recieved no apology. I went round today and gave mum all dads tools back so we have nothing of his now. Both parents are so narc that they absolutly see the incident as my doing and my father did nothing wrong. My mum is now insinuating that she believes my dp is abussive and controlling me and ordering me not to see my dad. My car has broke and mum also thinks dp won't allow me to get another car in order to control me. (not true at all). It's true me dp hates my olds but thats because they've been wicked to him. He'd never stop me seeing them. This used to upset me greatly. But tonight i dropped those tools off with my head held high. Mum invited me in and i politely declined as i was about to go home for a bath. She looked sad and i'm sure she thought my dp had told me not to go in. But i didn't care! I could either come home and have a lovely bath or go in and listen to her hint about how controlling my dp is. No contest! It's easier and easier to put myself first now that i've realised i can't worry about how they feel anymore. They will always believe the problems lie with me and i can't change that so i've moved on. It's hard not to care what they think but it's getting easier by the day. I am getting stronger

Thank you Fi, forgetmenots, unschool, Attila and midwife. I really appreciate your responses.

Hello all, I haven't been on for a while. I apologise for the rant below, I need to ask for your advice.

I am trying to find out about specific counselling to deal with my childhood experience of witnessing domestic abuse / being a parentified child. I'm so, so angry. I've spent years depressed, variously propping myself up with alcohol / bad relationships / internet / food. But I think it's not simply depression - it's anger. I've spent 30 odd years squashing down my feelings and I don't want to do it any more.

Mum and SF have moved abroad, and I stupidly said that DH and I would go out there later this year. Last time we went I ranted at mum because she made a joke about me 'quitting' Guides and I told her I didn't have a childhood like my peers and couldn't relate to them. But I've been conditioned (I think) to back down, to minimise my own experience because my mum and SF don't want to admit at a deep level that they fucked up.

I was thinking of backing out, giving money problems as the excuse. However, I rather stupidly said I'd take my DSis lovely kids over there (DSis sensibly won't go over after a row she and her DH had with my folks) and mum has already told the kids that they're going. I don't know what to do.

I find it hard being with my parents. My mum drinks a lot and SF is uncommunicative. I haven't told him since I was 16 how the violence affected me (and he was violent with me when I was 18 so obviously didn't take it to heart). I spend the time with them getting hammered because then I can shut everything down. But I don't think I can, and I don't want to expose the kids to me raging at their grandparents.

How do I go about backing off from what I said I'd do?

I cannot see a way for you to avoid having a frank discussion with her and tell her you're not coming Sunny I'm not sure you could find a reason not to go that she wouldn't counter or try to suggest an alternative. You could spend months treading round the issue, trying not to offend and if you go in the end to please them, it'll be a miserable time for you.

I am starting to realise myself that I need to state my boundaries yet again to my Mum. Trying to be passive and non confrontational isn't working. It feels like this elephant in the room when we speak. I need to be outright with her and say I'm not coming. Full stop.

My current situation maybe clouding my advise though. It's so difficult, as we do not want to cause upset or a huge falling out.

Perhaps there is a way to manage it that I cannot see though.

There's so much I'd like to tell my parents about my upbringing. But I don't. I just try and put boundaries in place, when I can.

I'd like to have it out with them, but they'd deny it. They minimise my childhood and do not think they did anything wrong. In fact they minimise it and excuse it all and tell me I was a difficult child.

I've had some counselling but I think perhaps I should do some more tbh.

Anyway this isn't about me, it's about you.

If you can get beyond the FOG, what do YOU want Sunny? x

Thanks MomeRaths (good nickname BTW)

I'm much calmer after having talked with my DSis. She said she'll support whatever I decide. She got angry years ago and tempers her response to them accordingly.

I offered to visit the parents abroad because of obligation and guilt... but invited the kids because we took them away for a week last year and had a ball. I'd prefer to spend a week with the kids over here, TBH. I could live without ever visiting my parents' place again.

I have never admitted that to anybody. I mean, what kind of daughter doesn't want a holiday in the sun?

You're a good person Sunny.

Your feelings are important, they do matter. They did do this to you. And it is perfectly reasonable to not go there for a holiday and save the money and your holiday days for UK based holidays with your nephew/ nieces. You sound like a lovely Auntie.

I would counter your point though and say what kind of Mother allows a Father to abuse her children? And doesn't leave him?

Of course you do not want to go. It's the FOG speaking again, that says 'what kind of daughter am I?' You're a daughter who was abused, whose Mother jokes about you quitting Guides You don't have to go. Enjoy a special holiday here x

Or holiday abroad in the Sun. Just not with them

Thanks MomeRaths.

My sister's kids are brilliant, both teenagers and great company. My DSis and her DH have done a great job bringing them up. My DBIL came from a similar background to us.

My DSis and I were failed by our mum, our stepfather and our dad. He was EA to my mother and (I think) to me. He knew about the violence and threatened to get social services to take us away. (It was in the early 80's so they didn't step in automatically.)

When she and SF moved to take a job opportunity, I had to stay because I was in the middle of my O levels / GCSEs and couldn't move. I was farmed out to an ex neighbour then an aunt because he didn't want me in his spare room.