DS (4.5) doesn't like going to his dad's and has said he doesn't want to go there anymore

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Sorry, this is a bit of a long rant. Posted this in Lone Parents as well but it doesn't get much traffic so I thought I would stick it here as well.

I was at XPs with DS today for a few hours (normally I just drop him off) and I was horrified. The house was freezing, ex has central heating but has never used it since it was put in a few years ago. He just has a tiny gas fire in the living room and uses that, but we were trying to play in DS's room and I looked at the temp and it was 11.5C inside. My hands were numb. Eventually ex grumpily put the heating on when I asked many times but I know full well when I am not there it will never be switched on again.

Ex is also a hoarder and the whole house and back garden is filled to overflowing with tools, things he finds in skips and random stuff so you can no longer get to the trampoline or swing, which are both overrun with weeds and creepers etc anyway. He will only feed DS what DS wants to eat so he eats no fruit or veg on the days he is there from 11am to 6pm. DS refuses to stay overnight there, has tried it but never slept and came home irritable and cross.

I have struggled with this issue for the whole of DS's life since he was born and today I feel like I am just fed up with it. Ex was emotionally and financially abusive, he is almost pathologically miserly and tight with money, and I think he is probably a bit aspergers. When DS is there ex is constantly trying to get on with various DIY projects or hobbies and he never plays with DS, it's like he doesn't now HOW to do imaginative play or really interact with him properly.

Now today DS has said (not for the first time either) that he doesn't like going to Daddy's and he doesn't want to go there anymore. Normally I would laugh this off, he is only a kid and you can't take a 4 year old at face value and re-arrange contact just because they have a strop, right? But I can see how miserable he is and I am sick of tiptoeing around ex trying to do things by the book with 50/50 contact when he is just a crap parent. DS is a bit scared of him as ex talks loudly and patronisingly to him and I would happily never take DS there again, I know he would be happier. I just would feel so guilty as I know ex loves DS even though he's not a good parent.

I don't know what to do but am contemplating not letting DS go there alone and cutting right down, perhaps to a few hours once a week accompanied by me so he can still see his Dad. Am I evil? So conflicted over this but I am reaching the end of my tether with seeing DS unhappy. :(

If the place is unsanitary, cold, filled with junk etc then it's not suitable accommodation for a child. Keep your DS home and tell your ex that he'll be staying there until the conditions improve. 'By the book' means doing the best for your child and keeping him safe and secure. 50/50 is an goal, not a minimum requirement.

From what you've said I wouldn't be happy to send my DC there. There are other ways you can help to keep contact going by having your ex over to yours if that's a okay for you, going to play centres or museums the park ext..

Thanks, Cogito.
What do I do about the fact that DS's reasons for not wanting to go there differ from mine? He says it is boring, daddy never plays with him and he would rather be with me. I feel all those reasons and see the safety stuff etc on top of that. Not sure how to phrase it to XP as DS doesn't really enjoy spending time with him as he can be hectoring and loud. Do I give DS's reasons or mine, both? I am a bit scared of him.
He said today when I first asked if he could switch the heating on: "Look if you don't want to bring him, don't bring him" and was immediately on the defensive.

I second Cogito. From what you've said, your ex's home is not suitable or safe for a young child and, until such time as it is, you are best advised to restrict contact to a couple of hours as and when you can accompany him and stay throughout his visit.

If your ex instructs a solicitor/makes application to a Court in respect of contact, I suggest you involved SS and/or any other agency that is lawfully empowered to inspect your ex's premises.

Thanks nervousReindeer. I know XP would object to the petrol costs of always coming to mine, let alone the admission fees to anywhere else, but yes that might be an idea, will think about whether that could work. HATE having him in my home as he casts a roving eye everywhere and comments on stuff etc. ugh.

X-posted izzy, thank you. I took some pictures today incase he tidies up and pretends it was always like that. When I found myself needing to do that I knew things had got really pants!

Ugh, I wouldn't let my child go there and I don't blame your son for not wanting to go.

When he said, "You don't have to bring him" do you think he meant it? How much of a fuss would he put up if your son didn't go there?

Does he ever phone to speak to your son when he's at your house? Would he even begrudge him that?

Are you happy to go without any kind of child support to have your son every day?

Does he not think about what it costs you to take him there? It works both ways and if he wants to see his DC then he'll walk if he hasn't got the money. For reasoning I would use mainly yours but include some of your DS's so it doesn't look like you are just preventing from your DS from going when he wants too

He pays no child support as it is! Left a well-paid job when I left him and is now self employed, with some odd cash in hand earnings that I see nothing off. Although he recently bought DS a bunch of new clothes.

I think he may give up quietly but I am scared in case he flips out. And I know he would be hurt and miss DS.

Oh, he's got the money - he's just tight. I usually take DS there and Xp brings him back apart from Sat when he picks him up and returns him.
Thanks for the posts, it is really helping. I have never met my own dad so it is scary thinking of stopping or lowering contact as I don't want to be influenced by my past IYSWIM, in either direction.

I would formalise all contact arrangements as of now by way of using a contact centre.

He is deliberately being difficult towards you because he can; abusive men often behave in a similar fashion. He does not give a toss for either you or his child.

A child is not deemed capable of making certain judgements such as safety. It's our job as parents to make those judgements on their behalf until they get old enough to do it for themselves. If a prospective nursery was in the same state as your ex's place you wouldn't let DS stay there for a minute. This is no different.

Don't know about you but I'd walk across hot coals to be with my child. If a few quid petrol money is your ex's excuse for not seeing his ... what does that say about his motivation?

Why are you 'a bit scared' of your ex?

He's give you the out, hasn't he? You don't want to take your ds to an unsuitable and unsafe environment and leave him in the care of a father who neglects/ignores his needs, so take your ex at his word and don't take ds to visit him.

At 4yo your ds is not going to be aware of the safety/health issues which you, as an adult, can see in his df's home and he's giving his reasons why he doesn't want to go there.

In saying 'it's boring and daddy never plays with him' your ds is telling you he doesn't want to go to his df's home and, from what you've said, that's not surprising, is it?

I don't know many 4yos who'd be queueing up to be hectored and lectured by adults who neglect their needs, and I see no reason why your ds should continue to be made miserable simply because you seem be fixated on letting your ex share care of him 50/50.

I am a bit scared of him because he was angry and controlling/emotionally abusive when we were together. I wailed to my mum and she emailed being quite supportive and basically saying what you are all saying. She also pointed out that 'I've noticed that XP only makes an effort if he's galvanisf - eg if he thinks he'll lose something otherwise. But because it's just a reaction & not really coming from himself, he soon slides back again.'
She is spot on, and I don't know what to do if he briefly bucks up and then slides again. It's just going to be more to-and-froing for DS.

I am due to go away for a few days with DS and XP knows he won't be seeing him then. When we get back middle of next week I will explain that I don't want to bring DS round there alone again and suggest the one accompanied afternoon a week thing. Will see how he reacts. Thanks for the posts, it is helpful to have some perspective. I thought you would all come down on me like a ton of bricks and say I am being selfish/alarmist and that every child needs to see their dad wherever possible...

No abuser should ever have contact with their children.

Please listen to your boy, please don't make him go there. Let your ex make the effort, I'm guessing he won't.

He's only doing this to your son, out of hatred of you.

He's hurting you, by hurting your son.

Stop contact until his home is fit. Put the ball in his court, and don't ever negotiate on it.

If a Childminder, neighbour or friend of yours kept a house like his, would you leave your son with them?

They're not related to you, nor ds...

This horrid little man is harmful, the least he has to do with you and your son the better.

Why do you low your son to go to a cold and unsafe place just because it is his dad? Makes no sense. Use the childminder analogy.
Tell ex he can meet ds once per week in the soft play or librarry for two hours . Until he clears his house and puts the heating on.

Don't let your DS go there. Please don't.

Give your ex both your reasons AND his. Report them as clearly as you have to us. Make it clear you are telling him to give him the opportunity to change things (although I really doubt anything will change).

All visits with you. All visits somewhere warm and suitable. If he doesn't come that's not your fault and your DS is still better off.

He may have been angry and controlling/emotionally abusive when you were together, but you're not together now and there's no reason why you shouldn't give him the finger assert yourself without fear in order to protect your ds.

If you don't listen to us, listen to your dm - she's got the right idea. As for him being 'galvanised' that's what happens to buckets and it's about time you kicked his out from under arse into orbit around planet offufuck.

In common with all of us, your ds only gets one childhood. Make it a positive experience for him by refusing to allow the sperm donor his f to suck the joy out of it.

If that's not enough to convince you, it should be patently obvious to all who have dealings with him that your ex is an arse and you'd be ill-advised to run the risk of letting your ds become a chip off the old block - and don't fall into the trap of underestimating the extent to which dc learn by osmosis.

FWIW, when it comes to the needs of a young child IMO none of us can be alarmist enough - and by that I don't mean dc should be wrapped in cotton wool but, no matter how young they may be, they deserve to be listened to and given a voice by the adults who are charged with protecting them and by those who have their best interests at heart.

Suspend all visits until he shapes up.

THEN consider starting them in a safe space.

DON'T allow him to use your home. That's intrusive.

He's fucking this up, not you. He needs to sort it. Not your problem.

Only the welfare and comfort of your son is important.

Keep strong, don't negotiate.

YOU hold all the power now.

Thanks all. Mutual friends who know what he is like still think he is 'a good bloke deep down who obviously loves his son and deserves to see him' and I can see their point of view which has kept me dithering a bit til now. But his house yesterday was the last straw.

Unsure whether to allow limited contact or none, and where to have contact if any, as you all seem to have differing opinions on that one! Will have a think. Thanks again for the support, MN is great when you need a kick up the arse.
(and I have been here for many years under different names and you all helped me loads when I actually left him in 2010, so it is lovely that I can still get support now as well.)

Yes the welfare of your son is what is paramount.

If your ex cannot see that when you negotiate with him, the family courts will definitely put your son's interests top of the agenda.

p.s. I also wanted to add, there are lots of ways for a parent to keep a relationship with a child going e.g. going out for a meal, outings, etc, if they are basically 'a good bloke' as you say. If the home conditions are not right, especially when your son is SO young and DOESN't want to go there, there is no necessity for this at all IMO. Your son already has a home (with you) so he doesn't NEED two, IYSWIM? It will not bring them closer and seems to be having the oppostie effect.

this is such a sad thread

I know I shouldn't, but I do feel sorry for this emotonally crippled man

I like what jane says, let him know house is not fit for purpose, and until he fuxes it DS not happy visiting. suggest he fixes house up, and takes DS out instead

So I explained the situation to XP when I got back on Weds, and said I would bring DS round to XP's mums a few doors down from him and maybe DS could see XP while there for a few hours. XP reacted on the phone by saying he 'always knew this was coming' and that he had 'been waiting for this'. He kept saying 'you don't need to explain, you don't need to explain' and that it was my and DS's choice clearly, but he also didn't seem bothered when I mentioned he could get the house sorted, saying that it didn't matter that it was unheated as he takes him out a lot.

Anyway, took DS round today and called for XP on the way, DS saying all the way there that he doesn't want to see his dad, and starting to cry when we were outside his house. XP comes out, takes one look at DS and tries to talk to him but DS turns away and won't look at him or talk to him/be touched. XP says bitterly he won't accompany us as there is no point in upsetting DS, and then shoots me a look of pure hatred and malice, the kind he used to use when I was with him and stood up to him occasionally, which means 'I will make you pay if you continue to flout my authority'. So feel a bit scared now.

Have arranged to take DS directly to see XP's mum the Monday after next, which she seemed happy with. Unsure whether I should phone XP again and suggest he comes along too - surely DS will react the same way as today and XP will just get angrier and angrier as he seems to believe I have poisoned his son against him?! But if I don't make any effort to ensure contact he may get nasty too. Gah!