So it's not all in my head then:( (long)

[MerlotforOne]

Can't quite believe I'm writing this, but need to get it written down before I minimise it again.
This morning, DH and I both a bit tired, DS (3) acting up a bit. DH offered to take DS and dog for a walk so I could get some peace. DS was being difficult about getting his coat on and DH was acting as though his temper was getting strained. He muttered 'I don't work hard all week to come home to this!' And then pinned DS on the stone floor and wrestled him into his coat. DS was sobbing and I wanted to comfort him, bu DH snarled t me to go upstairs and let him get on with it. I would normally retreat at this point so as not to provoke him, but today I decided not to and stood m ground.

He asked me again to go and I said if he was upset he should take the dog out and clear his head, and leave DS with me. He said 'you really don't want to push me just now' and I asked why he was threatening me? He walked over and shoved me really hard through the doorway into the next room and onto the floor. DS saw this and ran over to me. We both somehow ended up upstairs and DH followed us up and stood there saying I was over-reacting as it was only a shove had provoked him so i deserved the shove.

I was crying and DS was upset and brought me his muslin and dummy . I refused to let DH touch me and he told me again I was overreacting and denied the comment about me deserving it, said I had made that up. He then took DS and went for the walk. I haven't been able to send being in the same room all day, but daren't leave in case he gets really angry and does something worse.

He has only physically assaulted me once before, 8 years ago on holiday, and was so drunk at that time that he passed out and claimed no memory of it. He can be grumpy and I feel I walk on eggshells and that I have to justify myself a lot. Since the incident 8 years ago, I've always backed down before he lost his temper, and fooled myself that he'd changed, but I discovered mumsnet 6m ago and have been reading a lot on this board and feeling increasingly uneasy that quite a lot f it applied to me.

He is not at all financially controlling, but was very jealous and quite controlling of my social life (back when I had one) and can be quite argumentative after a drink (not that he drinks much these days). He can also be loving and affectionate and we have long periods of time where everything seems fine, but I've been excusing his behaviour for a very long time and now there are really no excuses left.

Don't know what to do really. Thoroughly miserable and very confused.

YY Turnipcake, my ex followed exactly the same script. I fell for it when I left last year and returned. I haven't this time. 3mths since I left next weekend.

Was he burned out 8 years ago when he assaulted you? Has he been burned out for the past 8 years when he's made you tiptoe round him in case you set him off again?
Take all reports about his GP, friends and family's assessment of his 'condition' and your relationship with a ping of salt. They're all based on his reporting of the situation and his behaviour. And quite frankly he could tell you they said anything. And since when was a GP qualified to diagnose why he abused you and your son?

Burned out --

And yet the people he took a swing at were just you and his own little DS. Not the milkman or the postman or his receptionist or a taxi driver. He didn't drive over to his mother's house and belt her, or his close friends. Burned out means surely that every relationship he had would suffer, and that every single person he encountered would be at equal risk of a black eye?

Maybe you see what I'm driving at here?

He did something to you, specifically and to your little son that he thought he could get away with and in the context of a relationship where the thing he seems to be getting out of it is the unchallenged opportunity to dominate you. The other relationships he has and the random encounters with others do not give him that opportunity.

Of course he is bereft. He has no punchbag any more. It grew legs and a backbone and escaped from his reach.

TurnipCake, mine too.

Merlot, SwallowedaFly's posts are spot on.

You are dealing with a very cunning man indeed.

He is probably delighted with his success so far. All those family members and close friends, and a doctor, feeling sorry for him. Most likely not a single one of them has been told the truth.

Please don't fall for this tired old script, OP. Read the amount of people who have been told exactly the same thing. We are all desperate for you to not fall into the same trap of wanting to believe the best in someone. If you can't stay away for your own sake, stay away for the sake of your ds. He will get to see you thrive in an environment where you can live as YOU want to and will be infinitely more happy as a result. My dc certainly are. I feel like a different person.

It's hard to believe us over and above the man you've loved for years and had a child with. Of course you want to believe and trust him.

Can you just suspend judgement for a while? Lundy Bancroft has a lot of good advice about how to tell if he has really changed. But you need to stay away from him for months and months and months to see if he suits his deeds to his words. You need to look hard to see whether his sorrow is really about the suffering caused to you and your son or whether his pity is all reserved for himself (which, to an outsider, is what it looks like).

Stay away, go to counselling, write up a diary of all the bad things you can remember that he's done, read up about DV (especially the Lundy Bancroft books). Don't think about setting foot in the same household as him for six months - this is a common guideline given where men are attending DV programmes.

As ThereGoes says - you don't know what he told the GP, and you don't know what the GP told him (other than his own report of it), and there is no reason to believe his GP has any expertise in DV. It would be a very shaky foundation to think he has really started the turn the situation around.

Merlot. My DH and I have been together for 25 years. We have had ups and downs and have toughed out a few tough times. I get flamed on here for saying relationships need compromise and understanding and forgiveness.

25 years ago I knew if a man laid a finger on you it meant curtains. 25 years later I think the same rule applies.

You are young OP, you are clever and you have a child to keep safe. You also have a very young child and the sooner you get both of you out of this the better. With every year your boy will nbe older, will have more understanding and be more invested in having two parents. It will get harder and harder for you to leave and next time you are assaulted yiur boy will understand more yet be more aware of his father's departure.

My children are older teenagers. Some of their friends have been through this as younger teenagers. Half of them are off the rails and pretty messed up.

I think you need to start over and build a new safe life for you both, now xxxxxx

Merlot. I have recently suffered burnout.

I have not assaulted my partner.

Please don't fall for this.

OP, I realise you're treading a painful and complex path, and of course you want things to be OK. But one concern I've got is the extent to which he's trying to make this into a situational thing (ie work stress made me do it) rather than a dispositional thing. Yes he's trying to reduce work stress, but what about other types of stress that might arise in his life? How is his approach going to prevent him from lashing out in response to those? For example what if he has to care for a sick parent in the future? Or faces a serious illness himself? He needs to address his dispositional tendency to physically lash out, at least as much as he needs to address the current sources of stress in his life.

Wishing you strength and support for the coming weeks and months. By taking your son out of that situation you've prevented him from picking up the message that the way to solve disagreements is with your fists.

Odd that, isn't it, jess.

There've been numerous occasions when I've been burned out during my life. Given some of my experiences, I've almost come to see myself as a walking wounded PTSD case.

Yet I've never come close to taking it out on my nearest and dearest, or any hapless stranger* that crossed my path when I was feeling particularly fraught with the need to spin plates while keeping umpteen balls in the air.

*except for the misguided twunt who tried to mug me.

I think what is coming through here is that people react differently to stressors, some people get violent, some get withdrawn, some fall apart etc.

The problem is that if your H is the kind to get violent when he's burned out, he's the kind to get violent with any stressors, it's just his reaction to stress. And once his mind has discovered (even subconciously) that he can react in this stress relieving way then he will be more likely to do it again and for less reason.

OK so this time he was burned out in comparatively extreme circumstances, but next time it will be in slightly less extreme circumstances, and less the time after, until it gets to the stage where he will act violently at the slightest provocation.

Hmm...I don't think it is black and white.

A shove once every 8 years is not a pattern of domestic abuse, IMO. The bigger issue is your walking on eggshells.

I think you are very angry, and righly so. He seems to be reflecting and willing to change.

Give things time without rushing into a decision one way or the other

I agree flatbread. The last eight years don't sound very happy and if the OP hadn't managed his behaviour as well as she has, (all credit to her) there might have been a lot more pushing and shoving. Also, her son is only 2 and he had him pinned down. An environment were mum treads on eggshells to keep day calm is not an environment for a two year old, ...or a 3 year old, ....or a 4 year old, ..... or a . What lessons does that teach the next generation about healthy relationships.

married, I thought dh pinned down his son to put him into his coat because he was wriggling and resisting. Children cry often when they are made to do things they don't want to. I wouldn't call that abusing his son, necessarily.

I think the eggshells thing can be resolved. It will require dh to be very honest with himself and make the attempt to change, and for op to stand-up and speak her mind.

But it could well be that op has had enough and wants out.

It is too early yet, and perhaps best not to make a decision one way or the other.

Flatbread I think what many here are getting at is that her H has NOT been honest with himself but is blaming all his behaviour both past & present on his recent diagnosis of being "burned out".

The burned out thing has been recent only, the grumpiness & walking on eggshells has been going on for years.

Flatbread if the OP was not happy with the level of force the father was using, she was right to step in and stop him.

Have you ever, really, in your heart of hearts, found it productive to physically manhandle an unwilling child into a coat?

"DS was being difficult about getting his coat on and DH was acting as though his temper was getting strained. He muttered 'I don't work hard all week to come home to this!' And then pinned DS on the stone floor and wrestled him into his coat. DS was sobbing and I wanted to comfort him, bu DH snarled t me to go upstairs and let him get on with it. I would normally retreat at this point so as not to provoke him, but today I decided not to and stood my ground.

Have you read the OP to see what happened when merlot found the courage to stand up to her h and speak her mind flatbread?

Putting a coat on a reluctant and struggling child is an event many parents encounter on a daily basis.

Pinning a child to a stone floor to put its coat on is child abuse.

Physically assaulting the child's mother because she had the temerity to want to comfort her sobbing child is domestic violence.

HTH you to tell black from white.

Izzy,

Sorry I disagree that this is child abuse and domestic violence.

I do think that it is an unhappy marriage. And hysterical talk detracts from the real issues that are nuanced and more about respect, letting go, equality etc.

It may well be that dh hides and never faces up to his controlling tendencies. Or it may be that he makes an attempt to change and with a new awareness, they both make a go of it.

I have never cried before at any of the sad things I've read on MN. But this brought tears to my eyes:

"DS was upset and brought me his muslin and dummy"

This poor little lad deserves better than that shit for a father.

It seems there is some ground we can agree on, flatbread.

Merlot will regain her self-respect when she tells her h to go so that she is free to form a relationship with a non-abusive male in which she can experience true equality.

There is some real hysteria on this thread. Child abuse?! What does "pinning" to the floor mean or "snarling"? I think those are both sexist emotive terms, a bit like "she shrieked at me" rather than "she said". His version would probably involve telling her to mind her own business while he calmly made his 3 year old dress appropriately for the weather. Most parents have forced 3 year olds to wear clothes they don't want to at some point and that means somehow physically forcing them to wear them. If I did not insist, my 3 year old would always wear a spider man t shirt and nothing else in winter (as I actually let him yesterday and he would not put a coat on, even in the park. Luckily it was mild). Personally, I would tend to force him by sitting him on my knee in a firm grip and putting the head over his head and then arm by arm into the arm holes, but let's not pretend, it is physically forcing a toddler to do something they are not in favour of, for their own good. And, of course they cry. It is not pain or distress, it is frustration at not getting their own way. It is nearly always forgotten 2 minutes later when they are out having fun.

The OP then undermined her husband's parenting by intervening and getting in his face. Again, there is no excuse for being physical but it was a shove, not a hit. I can imagine the sympathy for any woman who shoved a man while he was undermining her parenting by suggesting she was so incompetent a parent that "she should go out by herself to clear her head" merely because she was dealing with a toddler tantrum. I suspect that would be termed "gaslighting" on these boards. His head seemed perfectly clear, he wanted his 3 year old to put his coat on and go out for a walk.

There is no excuse for being physical, ever, but two incidents in 8 years (one of which was not fully described) and one being a shove...hmmm, I can imagine the shape of a board which started "my husband just undermined my parenting by physically standing over me and refusing to allow me to take my three year old out and I shoved him in frustration".

I tend to agree with Flatbread here. He is on a short fuse and stressed and thus not really dealing with his son or wife with a decent amount of respect or patience. He definitely needs to get a grip.OTOH, it does not sound like the OP really likes him very much or respects him as a co parent. Maybe that also should be addressed. I think Flatbread is absolutely right when she talks of an unhappy marriage and nuanced issues (and she has highlighted several of them).

I can honestly say that I've never manhandled my DS to put clothing on at 2,3,4,5....

Larry, what you describe doing to your child is CRUEL. The child is crying as a result of that. Hang your head in shame over not only bullying a small child, but for being a DV apologist.

OP has stated clearly on this thread that we've followed from the outset, that in the past she's always backed down, but this time didn't as it had crossed a line.

She knows her dynamic, you have NO right to tell her to suck it up, or that she's lying, or that her H had a right to shove her through a door, which is what your ridiculous post does. You clearly have no idea what you're talking about, and I think your 'contribution' to threads such as these ought to be limited.

His actions following the incident are consistent with her version of events. A normal man would be immediately remorseful, horrified and desperate to correct the situation. Not brood for 2 days, then blame everything else under the sun, rather than himself.

No excuse. Ever.

Merlot, I believe you.

Sexist and emotive terms? She got in his face? A shove isn't the same as hitting? OP doesn't respect him as a co-parent?

...

No, I just can't.

I was you three years ago. My ExP only got arrested for DV after countless escalations and incidents earlier this week. I promise it will escalate as it did for me - there's no such thing as once or twice. He will get more confident when you do nothing or take him back.

Sorry I haven't had time to read the full thread but I wanted to post and say for you to stay strong because you deserve more

Happy,

If what I do is cruel, I have seen virtually every single mother I know do exactly the same. Of course, I often do allow him to just get cold when he says he wants to be cold. On the other hand, I am not going to be dictated to over what clothes a 3 year old wears or allow him to go out severely underdressed when it is - degrees outside. As to "bullying", I love this term when applied between parents and children, as if it is a relationship of equals and as if the purpose of what I am doing is to harm him when it is the polar opposite. I don't know what people get out of hurling those kinds of terms at loving parents. I somehow bet you are not so brave when you are out and see a mother forcing a temper tantrumming toddler into a coat. I suspect you give her a big empathetic grin and save your bile for the anonymous internet.

My contribution to threads such as "these" is limited. Please find my last post on one....hmm, maybe a few months ago. Unlike you, I don't regard myself as an expert and have no experience of the subject. However, personal experience of being sick does not make you a doctor, nor does reading one popular textbook on alternative therapy.

Thank you, you've all hit the nail on the head, particularly Freudian and Allergic. I'm bloody furious this morning. Started reading Lundy Bancroft last night and even though most of it doesn't apply to him, the few bits that do apply ring very true.

I do think he's been severely burned out and under a lot of stress. I do believe that he's really sorry and wants to change. He's already done a lot to address the work situation and his other outside commitments. He says he's made a lot of painful realisations about his character and his reactions to situations and recognises how wrong it is that he lashed out at me and DS yet was able to control himself at work.

I want to be able to believe him and trust him but I can't at the moment. I have made it clear to him that he could be the world's best husband from here on in and I might still not be able to get past this. The thing is that he keeps saying that I can trust him to never do this again, and I do believe he means it here and now, but it's not that simple. If I do decide to try again with him, I can't get around the fact that I'd be trusting him to ensure mine and DS's physical and emotional safety, and that's a hell of a thing to have to take on trust!

Don't feel I'm really expressing his very clearly. Very churned up this morning .