How would you feel?

[SimplySad]

So, last night my partner and I were having sex....TMI alert but I was wanking him off and he was watching some porn (this has never previously been a problem as the following never happened before). The upshot is, he turned the iPad to me and said he liked this girls figure, imagine young slim/skinny women with pert boobs (me = mother of 3 with jelly belly and a stone or two over weight) but he then went on to say that he imagined a family friend would like this naked. Cue me feeling utterly crushed.

I am not daft enough to think that he doesn't ever look at other women but he brought someone from reality into our sex life and although he didn't compare our figures, I now feel like a fat unattractive lump.

Am I over reacting? How do I get past this? I actually feel like our relationship cannot be salvaged from this as I feel pretty worthless to be honest. Other than this our relationship is fine other than trivial niggles.

Help!

There is a difference between fantasizing about a performer in a film (whether that's porn or mainstream)/a fictional character - and a person who is actually known to you such as a friend or colleague or relative. Because if you know a person in real life there is a greater possibility of you actually having sex with them, which is why talking about such things is hurtful to monogamists. And spelling it out to the person that you are engaging in sexual activity with that you find other people more attractive than him/her is hurtful, but it's not degrading.

But to mention it in this context is surely degrading if it is hurtful? That's what I meant by in this context I don't see the difference between hurtful and degrading. It isn't like he just mentioned it while they ate their dinner!

I'm not sure it is anything to do with monogamy, more insecurity. Monogamy is about having one sexual partner at a time not about not having fantasies about other people. I don't accept that this idea that porn is ok because it isn't real but a friend is devastating because he might shag her is rational or about monogamy. Plenty of monogamous people do not have a problem with fantasy. You are again conflating issues.

I don't think he said he found other people more attractive either, he just said he found another person/body type attractive. I dont see why that element is more hurtful if the line is drawn to a person you know either because surely you'd only be kidding yourself if you thought the interest in porn women body shapes of choice remained entirely in the porn, especially if he liked having you involved in the wanking.

There are lots of different types of attractions, there is not a real logical reason why saying something like that should indicate he doesn't find the op attractive but watching porn wouldn't is there?

FF, I am not sure how I will feel but am anticipating that it will be weird. She is a pretty young thing and a lovely person and now I know my partner thinks she has the perfect body

SGF, that is how I feel about things. It is the fact that this is someone we both know. For example, if he said that a stranger walking down the street was attractive, it wouldn't bother me either as he would be highly unlikely to see them again but he spent Christmas Day with her (and others). I can't say in an academic/knowledgeable/psychological way why this made me feel like it did, it just did.

Offred, it may be arbitrary but it is how I feel, whether that's right or wrong who knows? I've never had this happen before so the whole thing is odd and has upset me a lot. If he had said that this person is pretty and has a lovely figure or looked lovely after we had seen her or something then I would agree with him but for him to say it when he did was just odd and wrong in my opinion.

It is fine for it to be how you feel, that's not what i'm saying when i'n asking why one thing is unconcerning and the other is devastating. If the line is totally arbitrary and based on your beliefs about how accessible other women's vaginas are the how is he supposed to know that's how you feel? Especially if you claim to trust him, this is not trusting behaviour, it strikes me as "men will stick their cocks in any hole given half a chance"

I think the problem is not that you feel bad about this, because that is just how you feel, but that other things which seem to me to be and are logically speaking the same or on the same spectrum, you have allowed and encouraged and feel ok with as long as you can decide the actual women are "untouchable" in your mind, which is a fairly ridiculous thing anyway.

In reality if you are worrying that him finding a porn image which you don't see as real attractive means he does not find you attractive and might cheat then he is likely to do this whether women of this body shape are known to him or not. It makes no difference at all whether you or he know someone who fits his porn taste he either will cheat or he won't.

To him he may have felt that not only did you not have a problem with him fantasising about other people but that you wanted to be actively involved in it. He may not necessarily understand this, what I think is weird, dehumanising of women he is attracted to in order to tolerate it.

It doesn't make much sense as a perspective to me this porn women or the body shapes/women they reflect are "untouchable" especially since there is a lot of amateur porn around on the internet and a fair amount is linked to the websites of actual prostitutes which he could seek out and meet for much more risk free infidelity/sex than shagging a family friend.... Same with a stranger in a bar who has peaked his interest because of her body shape....

And the opposite with a family friend, a family friend would be the absolute hardest person imaginable to shag around with behind your partner's back...

I would tell him how you feel, Simply, because from what you say, I don't think it sounds like he meant to hurt you. It sounds more as though you have quite relaxed boundaries, he therefore thought saying that was ok, now you have found your boundaries are not as relaxed as he thinks they are.

I do get what you are saying about it being hurtful.

With ex-P, we often used to tell each other fantasies, eg. "And then this tall, blonde walks over to you" blah blah, I remember once thinking, "Oh, you mean someone like your cousin John?" for example, but I knew that if I said that, it would be going down a different and awkward path.

Fancying someone in the abstract is different from fancying a friend, and fancying a friend is probably fine too, but its best not to bring them in the bedroom with you.

I hope once he gets what you mean, that he apologises. I would also hope he will pay more attention to you in future and not a computer screen.

To extrapolate from the "women in porn are real too", it is pretty much accepted that porn use can and often does escalate to webcam sites where there is actual interaction with a "real" woman. Would this be acceptable to you, OP ?

Bearing in mind that OP's partner has shifted a boundary (comparing what he is watching on screen while his partner is wanking him off to someone he has regular contact with), it doesn't seem too much of a leap to say this is more than "odd"

I would say his "inadvertent" comment says a lot about him, and how he views women

and it's not good

I don't know if he has shifted the boundary in that way AF. Getting someone else to wank you while you turn away from them to watch porn seems suspiciously like you are fantasising about the person you are watching doing the wanking to me. I can't think why you'd do it otherwise, and that makes me think he has all along been actively fantasising about other people, possibly this family friend all along, I don't think it is a random new occurrence, just a thought he has now spoken.

And a thought he is now testing the water with because he feels it is acceptable to her based on how she has been amenable to doing it in the past. I doubt it will be the full extent of the fantasy he was having at the time.

I can't see what else it could be assumed he was doing than using the op's hand as a tool to increase his pleasure by making his fantasy feel more real. Surely he wants this because he wants to imagine he is being wanked off or fucking the women the porn aids him to fantasise about/is turned on by viewing in porn? Most normal people who fancy giving up shagging for any reason and want to finish off their partner with their hand/mouth/whatever don't then reach for the iPad, put on some porn and turn away thereby completely rejecting any involvement from their partner beyond the physical movement of their hand.

Maybe the op wanted to do it because she felt she was being included rather than excluded but surely if that were true once PIV was ruled out the experience would still have been about some kind of mutual pleasure? I find it hard to see how this is inclusion other than being included in his fantasies about other people.

I am not directly referencing your posts, offred, just putting my own take on the situation (although I agree with some of your points, as per)

I think the "boundary" thing is possibly only something that existed in OP's head

hence her apparent "shock" at her partner acting like a complete dick

myself, I would have applied the "complete dick" tag a long time ago and utterly refused to wank someone off who was simultaneously watching porn

a couple of posters have said the porn is a "red herring" whereas I believe the porn is the root cause of his complete dickery

I understand this is often a minority opinion on MN though, and OP is more likely than not to place herself in a position of defending his porn use in the face of her own abjectness (this will not be a popular view, I am aware of that)

Yeah, yeah, I know I just don't think it is new, I think it is integral and he is becoming more confident about sharing his thoughts is all.

I agree completely, I think the porn may be a root cause of some problems although I certainly think this being ok with porn and wanking him to his iPad porn is the direct cause of this upset he has caused the op.

And I think the two most likely things are he is stepping up degradation and humiliation of her or he didn't realise she had an arbitrary line about what other people he is allowed to wank over (or use her hand to wank him over).

offred, I agree on the "double standards" aspect of your posts (if I am understanding them correctly)

to me (and I'm sorry, OP, I have no wish to make you feel worse, but please will you think ..) but...

1. to be happy to wank him off while he watches other women having sex

2. to object to him having fantasies about other women, and voicing them

it seems hypocritical to me

women in porn are real

perhaps the precise woman you see at the point of your specific orgasm is unattainable, but there is a plethora of real women available on the intranet to fulfil your every fantasy (if that is your wont)

telling your sexual partner it happens to be the woman down the road you have contact with on a regular basis is a fuckign massive red waving flag IMO

if you don't treat it as such, you are colluding with his harm of you, and his disrespect of women in general

porn is harmful to men and women...no more evidenced by this thread...than all the others on here by women who think they are with a good man...to find they are actually not

*internet

Yep, double standards of a kind I suppose, maybe I'd say more like avoiding the truth in order to tolerate something which you clearly do find unacceptable.

That would be cognitive dissonance and a prime example of that we see before us

Best thread on MN ever!

Seeing the more 'traditional views' clash with the more 'progressive'.

So the OP is happy and comfortable with her and hubby viewing porn. But MN hive isn't happy with that, oh no, she should NOT be dong this. Porn = bad.

So the OP was helping her husband finish, being unable at that moment in time due to a physical condition. All good so far with me, but hive isn't too keen.

He commented on the attractiveness of the performers. Whats he supposed to do? Only watch porn with ugly performers? Or wear a blindfold in case he sees their faces / body?

His mistake was to comment that their buddy might look like that naked. She might. So what? He didn't say, or imply, that said friend was on his to-do list.

Then we have the size issue. Op herself mentions she might be a stone or two overweight, and how her body, post kids, doesn't compare.

So prior to this one, slightly stupid and out of place comment, these two are having a happy and active sex life, and good on them.

OP, don't worry, all is ok.

In your world, it's ok, nsw

but as I have noted before, your world is not one I would wish to live in

and of course, nsw, a woman's cry of distress as "best thread ever"

yeah, there you go

keep talking

So he was watching porn, while thinking about a family friend, while his girlfriend was wanking him off.

And this is ok. In cronulla's world.

yeah. Let's all aspire to that

I'm not sure cronulla has actually read the thread tbh.

I think the "women in porn are real women" argument is derailing the thread.

Lots of couples have different rules for celebs than they do for people they know.

Plenty of people know that their spouse has a little crush on George Clooney/Angelina Jolie/Piers Morgan/Barbara Woodhouse. Some even bring that into their sex lives.

They are real people, but they are real people the people who fantasise about them don't know. It's not just a lack of opportunity, but the lack of any genuine connection that means they are no threat.

That is totally, totally different from indulging a crush or sexual fantasy about a mutual friend.

Bringing up a friend during a sexual act (or in reality, while you are being sexually serviced) crosses a massive line.

I am totally against porn, and find the idea of wanking a man off while he watches porn really horrible, but even I can clearly see how it was different and nasty to start openly fantasising about a family friend in those circumstances.

He may not have meant to upset you. But now you know something very ugly about him - he lets you service him while he imagines your friends naked.

I wouldn't want to be with that guy. He sounds horrible.

hear, hear sleigh

cronulla's knee jerk (or just jerk ) reaction is to defend the sex industry...no matter what the actual circumstances

OP would be foolish to listen to that