Can you really love two people at once?

[Libramonkey]

I don't understand men?

If your in a perfectly good LTR (12 years), clearly still love your partner, have a very affectionate, loving and caring relationship... Whats the need to have an emotional and physical affair?

Not my personal experience, but a male friend that I work with. The way he talks about his DP he clearly loves her and they have a good relationship, however I know he is having an affair and its not just for the sex. He is very emotionally and sexually attached to this other woman. I only know because the OW is my friend and as much as I've tried to make her come to her senses, she loves him so she just wont listen and the thing is I really do think he might love her too.

But it got me thinking... can you really love two people at once? I don't think so but I'd like your opinions.
and also why would a man start an affair when he already has a good relationship which he has no intention of splitting up? I could kind of get my head around if the relationship wasn't very good but from everything I've seen and heard there are a lovely couple.

Actually I think having an affair itself is abuse.

Of course it is. You are leading you partner to think their life is one way when actually its

But I was actually asking if it would be ok to abuse a partner as long as the 'thought' they were happy.

In answer to your question OP, it's possible to have very strong feelings for two people at the same time and having an affair has often got very little to do with feelings about a sanctioned partner or dissatisfaction with a relationship. Your puzzlement abut this (and no doubt your friend's too) is because you probably both think that people only have affairs when some external factor is 'missing' e.g in his partner or his relationship.

In fact, the missing factor is more likely to be within him.

So instead of focusing on his feelings for both women, it's more helpful to look at the personality and character traits of someone who is selfish and entitled enough to think it's permissible to have love and affection from two people at the same time, when one of them doesn't know about the other. Your friend has choices in this that his partner does not. If you're a good friend to her, encourage her to look at his behaviour more rationally and most of all, to examine her own motives for making this choice when she has so much information that suggests it's a bad decision.

I don't see the distinction between someone thinking they're happy and someone being happy... An affair is a betrayal of trust but it doesn't follow that it's malicious.

How often do we read the plaintive 'I thought we were the perfect couple, we never argued, we were soul-mates, happy, just renewed our vows, etc.'.... as being the status prior to the discovery of an affair?

Hardly ever. If you mean on Mumsnet I can think of lots of threads where people described their relationships as being like that before their partner met and started a relationship with a third party, but threads where a partner's behaviour has been completely unchanged despite an affair? I don't think I've ever seen one. I assume you are referring to affairs though and not one-night stands or one-off acts of infidelity?

I expect my dh to be faithful. Like most people expect their long term partners to be.

If he was not i would want to know. I would not want to live in a world where i 'thought' I was happy.

This man is not doing his do a favour by cheating on her but letting her continue to think he is faithful.

"I expect my dh to be faithful"

You expect it and I suppose you believe it that your DH is faithful now. But how do you honestly, cast-iron guaranteed, know he isn't?

"threads where a partner's behaviour has been completely unchanged"

You have a point. However, my reading of it is that the behaviour changes, not when the affair starts, but once the person decides they've had enough of their current partner. I have certainly seen (and personally experienced) examples where the abandoned wife had no prior warning. :)

No o e can say 100%.

But I don't see your point. If he were cheating I would not want to be married to him living in ignorance. We both know what we expect from marriage.

I want my marriage to be how we planned. Not completely different. I have a right to know what is happening in my marriage. To know the truth.

I really don't get the 'its ok to cheat on your partner as long as they don't know'.

most people would want to know.

But this thread is about someone who (like a lot of people having affairs) hasn't had enough of his sanctioned partner. He appears to want both women at the same time.

I agree that some affairs start after a partner has long ago stopped investing in a relationship and so in those cases, the behaviour has changed already, but even them IME it gets much worse once an affair starts, especially if an alternative life becomes a possibility. For people who are unhappy but lack the courage or means to leave until someone else comes along, those individuals will still invest something in a relationship to keep the status quo that they are so frightened of changing. There's less reason to do that if someone rescues them though - and less fear of response behaviour to worsening relations at home.

But when the affair isn't because of a poor relationship, typically the bad behaviour starts the moment an affair becomes a possibility.

The 'no prior warning' is an interesting concept. Many people looking back, realise that there were some warning signs but they were misinterpreted, often because the trust default was so high. Often you will hear people excusing changed behaviour as being down to stress, depression, bereavement, ill health - and not infidelity.

Thanks for your comments and opinions it's been really interesting reading.

I understand the loving two people in a poly relationship, but like others have said his relationship is meant to be monogamous which he's changed without her consent so I think it does show a lack of love to behave like that.

And also I'm a little bit of a believer in 'ignorance is bliss' if I don't know about it cant hurt me but it doesn't justify his behaviour, and i'm not sure his DP would feel the same.

I'm making him sound bad.... But he in all other respects a really nice guy, which is why I guess it surprises me even more.

I believe you when you say you think he's a really nice guy. People having affairs often are 'nice' people, albeit with a larger than usual dose of selfishness in their personal relationships. Doesn't stop them being good company or being a good friend. Re. the ignorance is bliss issue, I hope you'll consider that this is a bit of a myth and that in reality it's often hell (not bliss) for people to be ignorant of the real reason for their suddenly unsatisfactory relationships and recent unhappiness with a distant partner.

Charbon yes obviously if it meant that the relationship changed and your partner became distant then you wouldn't be happy in your relationship anyway if the cause is an affair or not. What I mean is like in this case the relationship between him and his DP hasn't changed and she's still happily unknowing in the relationship, if he had become distant or started to make her unhappy then its not longer bliss.

But how do you know what their relationship is really like?

What evidence have you got that his partner is blissfully happy?

Are you being told this story by others or do you know her intimately enough that she would confide in you if she was going through a bewildering or difficult time?

I'd also add that on nearly every thread I've seen where an affair gets uncovered mid-thread after posters have raised their suspicions, the OP starts by telling us about puzzling behaviour changes in her relationship and that she hasn't confided in anyone else. It's often only when someone is prompted to recall a series of fairly insignificant events and write them down, that the penny drops. If you've met this woman, her public persona might be very different to the one she adopts at night when she's lying awake worrying....

Yea I guess only from what he says. Although I've seen messages between them occasionally, and they always seem very happy, lots of love yous and hearts and flowers type stuff. And I know that they are always doing stuff together. So from the outside I wouldn't say there was any distance or anything?
She is also friends with someone we work with and as far as that friend is concerned they seem happy as always? However, like you say I don't know her intimately so couldn't be 100% sure how things are.

Poor woman. All these people who know her and the fact she is being deceived. I hope when she does find all this out she gets very angry.

OP ignorance isn't bliss. It is for a while and usually the truth comes out.
And this woman will feel stupid and humiliated. Even more so if she has been happy and had no clue, but everyone else knew.

I don't know anyone who would be ok with that. He may be a nice person but he is being selfish. Selfish is not love.

Talk is cheap. They agreed to be monogomous at some point and he's shitting all over that. Love you is worth jack unless you do it, not just say it

I must say other than those involved (the guy, his DP and my friend) no one else knows apart from me... the friend of his DP doesn't know whats going on, but think if she found out she would probably tell her.

Yes I agree he is being selfish.

not that his DP knows... but you know what I mean right?

Is this part of your colleague and your friend's permission-giving process then? That they are doing no harm to his partner? For example, if he or she had to face that contrary to their beliefs, his partner and his relationship with her were suffering because of the affair, would that make it more difficult for them to continue this relationship with a clear conscience?

There are too many mutual connections going on here for this secret to remain buried for much longer. If his relationship with his partner is as good as he claims it is, if she is willing to forgive then your friend is likely to be cast aside. And if his partner is not willing to forgive, your friend will never be sure that he is with her out of choice. Unfortunately people in his situation often talk a good job until put to the test.

I think if she were to find out she would probably leave him (although not certain) and you're right my friend wouldn't know if he would ever be with her of his own choice.

I would have thought it was the other way round, they could justify it if the relationship was unhappy anyway rather than if the DP was happy?
which brings me back to my question of if the relationship is good why the need?

Yes I think if it was affecting his DP negatively then he would be more likely to stop as it would affect his conscience more than it does. Although he still says he feels guilty (but clearly not enough to actually stop ) Don't think he'd do anything to intentionally hurt her so I think your right he thinks it's ok as long as she's happy and doesn't know.

I also think if the relationship wasn't good he would be more likely to leave rather than have an affair.

Well not really because this relationship is obviously not going anywhere is it? He's happy with his partner and has got no intention of leaving her, so I imagine he started the relationship on the basis that it was a bit of fun and then either his feelings deepened for your friend or he's pretending they have, to you as well as her. He's hardly likely to tell you (her friend) a different story to the one he's telling her, is he? It's far more likely that all these tales about his great relationship are being told to stop your friend thinking this is likely to go anywhere, but to keep the affair going he's probably learnt that it's more politic for him to sigh and wail about being torn between two lovers. Your friend has to make some bargains with her own conscience to continue a relationship like this; they are currently likely to be that it's okay because they love eachother and at least his partner isn't suffering because of it. OW who are at heart decent sorts, take no pleasure in another woman's suffering and tend to feel guilt if they know it's happening.

This isn't about 'need' it's about 'want'. We are all vulnerable to want more than we need, especially if it makes us feel good about ourselves in terms of our ego. But that's why the problem is in him because if you look at this logically, knowing yourself to be capable of deceit and lies shouldn't be an ego boost at all. It's similar for your friend. It's not a particularly valid ego boost for an attached man to want you or expect you to play second fiddle to someone else. People with healthier egoes get their boosts from other things that are connected to their talents, skills or their character - not their ability to attract additional sexual partners.

When someone has an ego that is defined this way, it's pretty impossible for one person to meet their needs, however satisfying their relationship or however much they care for a partner.

I don't think it's love if it's all hot sex and clandestine meetings once a week. That's infatuation. Love is when you've watched them puke and washed their pants and
i still
want to be with them.