"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's November 2012, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread <a class="break-all" href="http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/440839-but-we-took-you-to-stately-homes-a-thread-for" target="_blank">here (December 2007)</a>

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn?t have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

Follow up to pages first thread:

I?m sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don?t claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

I have cut and pasted this because I think it is fab. Just in case anyone misses the link.

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

Do you think it's about outward appearances, MW? Interested.

I know my inlaws always provided materially very well for their kids and so it makes people even more aghast that DH has gone NC - 'but look at all they did for you' kind of thing...

I know too that my MIL really cares that her peers think she is a good mother. I don't for a second think she cares about actually being one, and that's where the expensive lessons and presents come in handy. They can also be used against people at a later date - my DH is 'ungrateful' and 'unappreciative' because he doesn't accept that the material thing isn't the be all and end all.

I can totally understand why this has caused you confusion and makes it harder to untangle the feelings out.

is the be all and end all damn phone

God, that sounds apalling, forgetmenots - you ask why are you so worried - because you are pregnant and instinctively wanting to protect your baby. You shouldn't have to put up with this! What happened when they screamed through the letterbox etc? Because that for me would warrant a call to the police and requesting a restraining order.

thanks creepylittlebat, really appreciate that. I have been a lot more anxious about it since finding out I'm pregnant, so you're right. I haven't got the police or lawyers involved because DH isn't ready for that, just wants to break contact. If I'm home alone and it happens, I will call the police without batting an eye. I've been gathering information on what kinds of legal protection we can get, too, in case we need it.

Why is it that we always feel obliged to keep the full horror from relatives/family friends too? I have kept the details of what my brother did from other family members, but I suppose that's another means of avoiding aggro. Like they wouldn't believe it, and I suppose that's the conditioning, isn't it? So I got a load of grief (no pun intended) from an old aunty at a family funeral who thought I was being mean to my mother.

Glad to hear it forgetmenots, best to arm yourself and protect your own little family. I hope you have people nearby who would help.

True creepylittlebat. I think my DH thought no one would believe him/would blame him and that definitely was the conditioning. He still feels like that, and he is always pleasantly surprised when anyone who does get a glimpse of it empathises with him. He never expects that. And, yes, he gets grief from people who accuse him of all sorts (and I've had mud thrown my way too) from family members, based on complete lies dreamt up by MIL :( it is a very, very difficult thing to understand and to eventually break.

stuff came out when my sister was ill, but as soon as she had recovered its all been swept under the carpet again.

what happened when your sister was ill nettle? I've read your posts and this sounds absolutely horrific. Did she try to tell people about your parents?

Forgetmenots - you must protect yourself while pregnant & although it is difficult - telling the distant relatives the truth means they will protect you too.

Nettle - do you & your sister speak honestly to each other now?

Thanks MW. I hope they will understand (I think some of it will be quite a shock). I can't express any hint of doubt about this to DH as he has a hard time thinking he will be believed by anyone. Worst case scenario is that they say' it's not that bad really', and DH will feel awful. They are older and have a very traditional idea of family,but are at heart good people who would be upset if they saw a fraction of how hurt DH has been over this.

It's been a bad day for my DH too at the hands of his parents. Background history - throughout our marriage his parents (unbeknown to me) have manipulated him against me & interfered in our relationship. We separated in May this year after many months of strange & sometimes psychotic behaviour on his part & he went to stay with them temporarily & had a nervous breakdown but then rented his own place back near me & the kids & after 3 months apart we got back together although we are still living apart. It transpires that the crisis this year has unlocked childhood abuse at their hands & he has been having very painful psychotherapy. He has stood up to them, recently threw them out of his house for verbally attacking me in front of the children but they are becoming more & more aggressive & today his sister also made an abusive phone call to him on their behalf with a follow up nasty voicemail from his father. When he was a small child they used to drag him out of bed & make him stand in the middle of the living room screaming & shouting at him for some misdemeanour until he collapsed & then drag him to his feet & continue for hours. He is a broken man.

I didn't think anything could shock me any more Midwife but that has. Your poor, poor DH.

Is he ready to consider going completely no contact with them, or is it small steps at the moment with his therapy etc?

He had NC for a few weeks after he threw them out of the house (they were screaming & shouting as they went like 2 tantruming toddlers!) The problem is he has a 10 year old daughter from a prev marriage who lives very near them about 40 miles away from us. His parents see her independently & manipulate her against me & her step siblings & his ex goes along with it because of all the free childcare they give her. He is at a very early stage in all this & is struggling with the idea of it but is getting closer to NC I think.

My sister has been on ADs since she was 17. She was still at home at that point and seemed very lacking in self confidence - panic attacks and the like and she saw a doctor for stuff. I know my mum was mad because the doc wouldnt discuss my sister with her, and I think thats where the first claims of abusive behaviour came up.

She is quite a bit younger than me and I left home young, so we didnt see each other alot. I often get berated for not being closer to her, but at the age I was I was resentful of not having the normal freedoms of a teenage life because I was responsible for looking after her during holidays, and I also saw that because she was more bolshy than I she got away without having to do all the chores that I had had to do as she grew up, and was allowed to come and go as she pleased and was given money, whereas I had to have a sat job and pay my way for stuff, and I was jealous/resentful of that as well. There was very little done to encourage a good sibling relationship, and alot done which would prevent it.

There is a very noticable difference between the way the 2 of us are treated. I was made aware (told in fact) that as I had moved out (under the guise of it being easier for work) that I had chosen not to be part of the family. She was always included (even today with her husband and child) in family holidays, and when my dad had work which involved alot of travel I would be called in to house sit and they would go off for freebie breaks many times a year.

My sister probably suffered from PND after she had her child but was undiagnosed. She started self prescribing from the internet and soon was in real trouble. She ended up going manic and then suicidal, and she was persuaded to go into hospital, which she hated. This is when she started the abuse claims in ernest. There was family therapy but Im not sure what happened. I saw her at this time a couple of times and she was desperate. But it was hard because on the one hand my parents were there all the time so I couldnt speak to her on her own, but also I was diverted by my own feelings of her just attention seeking and finding motherhood difficult, and wanting my parents to drop everything and come running all the time. I wasnt sympathetic which I do feel really bad and guilty about, but in my defence I had my mum at my house nearly every day pointing out how unreasonable she was being, and how they hadnt been abusive, and I was having to deal with trying to support her whilst doing all for myself as well. I think at the time I felt they were reaping what they had sown by never being at all strict with her.

In hindsight I can see this differently. Her claims of abuse stemmed from neglect and emotional distance. How she was left by herself all the time with no friends and that she was bullied at school and noone helped or listened to her. She said her needs came way down the list of my parent's priorities and she had suffered through life as a result of it. My mum had a hobby which took all her time, money and interest, my sister was involved in it as an attempt to be part of her life. She told her I had left because I couldnt stand it, which caused my mother to come wailing at my door, and I was too cowardly to deal with it and claimed my sister must have had the wrong end of the stick.

Once my sister recovered I was effectively dropped as my support wasnt needed, and my sister returned as the golden child. I havent spoken about it to my sister since my revelation of what she was saying as firstly I have barely seen her without the rest of the family have been around (we did have a day out together last year, but we had all the kids with us, so not appropriate) but mainly because I dont know if I could trust her to tell mum, and Im not ready for that confrontation at the moment, if ever.....

Oh goodness, that does make everything harder. Is his ex completely in possession of the facts about them? That sounds absolutely awful, he must be worried about his daughter too in their care. You would hope that any lawyer or mediator would agree that your inlaws shouldn't have free rein there after how they treated their own children.

We tried reduced contact but it didn't work at all. Even NC has its issues, but it's been a blessed relief if I'm honest. I really hope his therapy helps, and again being frank I hope you both get the break you need from these people.

your poor poor husband MW
I just cant imagine doing that to my little boy. It breaks my heart.

That last was to midwife, x post nettle

Interesting how it's all been swept back under the carpet isn't it?

Nettle this sounds like typical golden child behaviour from your sister. I do feel a kind of pity for people like this - they spend their whole lives conforming to the mould set out of them, and it can turn sour so quickly when they fall out of favour. She probably isn't to be trusted (sorry) as her main priority will be to preserve her status with your mother. But I feel sorry for her as that's no way to live healthily.

Even though your treatment at your mother's hands has been far worse, your distance gives you perspective and an element of freedom, and a strength. I'm glad your DP sounds so supportive, your parents sound really twisted. Your life is by far the richest (but I bet you knew that) even when it doesn't feel that way.

The trouble is we're both so damaged right now that it's impossible for us to have a normal relationship. He's paranoid & fragile, I vary between desperate for attention & over independent. But we do love each other so time will tell & therapy will heal hopefully.

I guess the status quo is what people relate to. Everyone knows their role and everyone in their place with the matriarch at the head.

But its unravelling.

My poor dad is the enabler, loves her to bits, probably couldnt see the abuse if you wrote it in neon letters. would lay down his life to protect her, and yet she has chip, chip, chipped away at him for years and years and totally emasculated him. Its distressing to see. DP tries not to go round there because he finds it so distressing. And he cant handle it because you can see it getting under his skin and then he will flare up and retaliate (usually not that badly, maybe just even a crack at her expense) and then the drama starts. She accuses him of being horrible, its all 'woe is me and tears' and its just awful...... But now he has had a complete breakdown and I really dont know if he will get better. And he cannot even go to therapy on his own.

Dsis is the golden child, but with flip flopping self esteem issues - seems to go between over inflated entitlement to depression. I have wondered about bi-polar. But she is mimicking the family dynamic with her husband - the nit picking and criticism. The guy is so hands on, but its never done right. And he adores her. Child is delightful, and there is alot of love given to her, so thats one thing corrected!

And I am the scapegoat, the black sheep, the different/difficult/argumentative one who says that black is white JUST to piss them off, not because I could seriously believe it. But I am now just watching from the periferal and stepping back from the drama. The plan is to try to offer support to my dad.

I followed you here Nettle to see the full posting you linked to. Confusion, its awful and rings bells, when somehow growing up like everything is normal, when its actually hideous. A terrible journey for you both.

Horrified at your poor DH's abuse Midwife. Oh dear, do wish these were wounds that could be wrapped in soothing bandages and made to go away

I grew up terrified and silenced, blamed for fathers abusive outbursts (by mother), called difficult, awkward, laughed at, lived a solitary life in a big family on AD at 13. Slept on their bedroom floor carpet shaking with fear. Wet the bed til over 10 I think (when not on the floor!). Would regularly scream the house down at night. Still struggling to speak about it! Total invasion of privacy, my room was not my own, my diary not secret, my letters (and siblings letters as adults would be opened), any problems in relationship always my fault never theirs, ever. and that was well into adulthood prying into lives, demanding house keys to get in and snoop around and tell everyone how awful we all are, to each other. NC now. Still scared someone will see what I write, or see the bad person inside !!! which I know I'm not, called a whore by her (not sure what that is really even now, but because I slept with my boyfriend at the age of 17). Took me so many years of my life to see that I am not the way either of them were. and that their behaviours were not my fault, it seems crazy that I even thought that now, but I did for most of my life.

Someone said upthread, 'you'll understand when you have kids' [words that also use to ring in my ears as some sort of 'reason'], and absolutely NO, I do have and I still don't!!! I couldn't hurt a child in this way ever! Sadly it has made me overprotect which I am reframing now to be more logical about, and setting good boundaries.

Also bullied very young and for many years, and sexually. Thought I might die.

They never did any caring for me, although apparently I was the 'golden' child. I perhaps wasn't beaten like my siblings, to the extent. I wasn't comfortable being around them physically or emotionally, but stayed cos its your world at the time, but there is no admission of anything on their part or attempts to have any kind of relationship.

ooops.. very long posting, soz. Heart goes out to the awful sufferings here, and also great credit to the transformations managed despite it!

.. but to address my 'golden child' status, I have absolutely no loyalty to either over my siblings, whom I only see one of very occasionally, it just added yet another beautifully devasting dynamic to the rich fucked up tapestry.