"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's November 2012, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread <a class="break-all" href="http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/440839-but-we-took-you-to-stately-homes-a-thread-for" target="_blank">here (December 2007)</a>

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn?t have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

Follow up to pages first thread:

I?m sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don?t claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

I have cut and pasted this because I think it is fab. Just in case anyone misses the link.

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

It was posted - and, badvocsanta you're right - they can't tell me what to do anymore.

I wish the Ms thing didn't bother me - but it comes across that they don't like the fact that there are now two Mrs SlipperyIce 's - me and my ex's DW - who they have also taken under their wing, and the envelope address is their way of expressing their disapproval of my refusal to 1) change my name or 2) marry DP. My mother is a master of passive-aggression (as is my ex), and it's exactly her style.
Or, it could be a genuine misunderstanding and they might assume that now ex has remarried I would have changed my name through choice - always hard to tell, isn't it?

I'm going to wait for DP to get home and then open it with a large glass on wine in my hand.

SEND IT BACK!

Don't give them the satisfaction of having got your attention.

You know there is no misunderstanding, you feel that in your gut.

SEND IT BACK!

Yes send it back - "no one of that name at this address!!" Ha!!

I'd send it back too.

"When you have kids, you'll understand."

Dad, I have a child. She tests me and tries me in new and inventive ways every day. I frequently wish I could find an "off" button. I often dream of hiding in the top of the linen cupboard, just to finish my tea. At times I lose control and snap at her.
I have yet to understand, Dad. I still don't understand why it was all right for you to kick us, belittle us and ignore me in favour of my brother. Calling me a "cow" whenever I bloated due to PMT, that wasn't all right. Promising to beat us black and blue if we handed the butter-knife we were using to cut our play-do with directly to each other instead of putting it on the table was way, way over the top. You terrified us, because we knew you would. It was impossible to relax and play together with that threat hanging over us.

What confused, and still confuses me, Dad, is how you could be the most amazing Dad- loving, caring, protective, generous, and so very proud, and then swap to this callous, casually cruel man in the blink of an eye. I know, and I understand that you were the unwanted last "accidental" child. I know, and I understand that you pretty much raised yourself, and were mercilessly bullied by your brothers- all 6 of them. I accept this as a reason why you may have found raising us harder than "normal." I do not accept this as an excuse.

Dad, I will never, ever understand. The idea of hitting my child makes me nauseous. The mere idea of calling her names is unthinkable. And to threaten to beat her black and blue? No.

Dad, I love you. I forgive you- I don't believe you ever intended to hurt us. But you did hurt us. And I will never, ever understand.

Oh, and SlipperyIce, I'd probably get DP to check it over. And then probably I'd burn it.
They don't own you.

Not sure if I've done the right thing but in response to another tearful voicemail for my mother begging me to sort things out & telling me she is desperate to see her grandchildren I have sent a text :-

I got mum's voicemail again last week. Until the contents of my email are acknowledged & not completely ignored I'm not sure how the situation can change. I will endeavour to make sure she sees the girls around Christmas however.

Mistake?!!

Oh dear mw I'm not sure. I'd be the same though. It's taken me years to admit this stuff so not sure I'm good for advice. I could never imagine stopping my dc seeing her though. Their father treated us all horribly and still sees them.

Its interesting how alike our families are. When i told my mother I was leaving my first husband due to DV she said 'but i really like him, you should stay with him' !! Uh, no! My now Dh really has her number though and she is very careful round him. It was DS birthday today and she rang , managing to snipe that he didn't talk to her for long and we give him too many presents. I will never forgive her for leaving me on my own on my 13th bday for 4 days. I look at my now 13 yr old DS and can't imagine not wanting to celebrate his special day and to just be with him. I am glad we are the better, kinder people no matter how we arrived at this point!

Just discovered this thread. Lots of interesting stuff and I'll be sure to check out the reading in the first post.

I think I have what MN would describe as a 'toxic' mother. I am seeing her soon and already dreading it.

Kiwi

Apparently I too should have stayed with first dh because he 'had a good job and money'. Despite dv etc.
Again, current dh is very sure of who she is, so even before I went nc, she was wary and careful.

Loved your post, Wankbadgers. It expresses a lot of what I would like to say to my mother.

Reading it, the sentiment I wanted to add when thinking of my own mother is "...and you will never, ever understand."

MW you are braver than me. I am struggling to be in the company of my mother at the moment , let alone allow the woman loose on my children.

She seems to think the answer to any problem is to throw money at it. She has tried to buy herself into my children's affections since I have been harder with her. I think we might be getting to the 'no contact' stage. Sigh.

Thank you, Hisstletoe, for your response. I think there's a lot of truth in what you say.
I'm just feeling really sunk today. I had a counselling session this morning - it's counselling for an unrelated issue and it's supposed to be very issue-focussed CBT but actually my counsellor is very good about letting me ramble on about whatever's bothering me. I'm hoping that in the end the counselling will do some good but at the moment it's just having the effect of making me feel more and more fucked up. Every session just makes me reflect on yet another aspect of my self that is seriously damaged, and it unsettles me. Today was no exception. We spoke a bit about my mother and it just made me feel like everything is a hopeless tangled mess that I will never be able to sort out.

Afterwards I went to the Co Op to get some groceries and on my way out I noticed a little girl larking about outside. Her mother was watching her and laughing - not in a mean way, in a happy way. The little girl was having fun and her mother was enjoying her having fun, and she was actively expressing that. And I just thought "Wow, how amazing that would be. Imagine having that reflected back at you, as a matter of course: that you are a source of pleasure and that your happiness makes someone else happy." And imagine NEVER having that reflected back at you. Imagine if the only emotional responses you ever evoked in the people around you when you were a child were hostility, anger, impatience, irritation, contempt, violence, boredom.

How do you change your view of yourself? How do you stop seeing yourself as your parent saw you, namely as a fucking millstone, difficult, impossible, irritating, an imposition?

Oh well!! Had a Christmas card from them today - inside in CAPITALS!!! "MIDWIFE - WE STILL LOVE THE GIRLS - MUM AND DAD" Then a text from my father - he deleted my text unread by mistake. Ho hum!!

I have cut and pasted from another thread, so sorry if it sounds a bit bleugh..... After thought I bit the bu;let and decided it should really be posted on this thread (and I dont want to derail the thread I was on.....)

I grew up in a very dysfunctional family. I have only recently (after 10 years of being out of my abusive marriage - see how this works) realised the full extent of it, because on the outside I think I thought it looked normal.

I was never smacked. My mother boasts of this proudly, she says its because she didnt need to, because she could explain her reasons why what I said/did was wrong and that was that. But I was also labelled 'difficult' 'argumentative' 'contrary' 'naughty' and it soon became obvious to me as a child that there was no point in arguing as :

1. it didnt achieve anything, I would always be the one in the wrong,

and perhaps most damaging

1. love would be withdrawn and I would be a dissapointment/badly behaved/shameful if I expressed/did something my parent didnt want me to. This feeling of fear of letting my parents (read mother) know what I was doing in my life is still with me, but resulted in me going pretty much no/low contact for many years.

I wasnt allowed to develop normally or to grow up. I was given responsibilities which should have been my mothers. Once I started earning from a small p/t job i was expected to fund stuff which my sister continued to recieve for free at the same age, which kept me financially dependant. They resented me spending time with friends and I was very limited in what I was allowed to do (not going into town shopping/hanging out with friends) I wasnt allowed to have my own opinions or beliefs, in fact there are condecending looks/comments even to this day at anything which straysfrom their accepted way of being. Saying that at the age of 17 I started dressing as a goth and that WAS permitted (though my dad told me I dressed like a prostitute)

growing up like that set me up for life as someone who would always defer to someone else. Who didnt feel that their opinions/wants mattered. My self esteem on an emotional level was through the floor, but academically and in a work environment I was successful and popular. I also had lots of good friends. It was just love I couldnt do as as soon as I was involved with someone I automatically defererred to their wants/their likes and dislikes/their interests.

As an aside my sister WAS hit because she ignored/argied back. I didnt know this because this didnt happen until I had left home. My sister has been sectioned twice and attempted suicide. My father is also now on antipsychotics which are barely holding him together, and has been a shadow of himself for the last 2 years. This is the legacy of living with/having a parent/partner who is outwardly 'lovely' but is horribly controlling.

I had therapy when ex finally left, and realised I wasnt mental, it was him making me mental. Just a bit wrong thinking in some of my basic fundamental assumptions as to 'how things are' and learned a few techniques about how to stop me spinning into mad lady ranting to herself mode.

a couple of years ago I joined MN and realised that the relationship had not been bad, but actually had been abusive, and that he most probably was a narcissist or possibly even a psychopath (having heard about stuff from his ex after me, which got far far worse)

This was 2 years after the point my sister was being shifted into the Priory and shouting about abuse from my parents. I didnt see it at the time. Just thought she was being a princess as had always been spoilt rotten and put first. I didnt see how she could claim that we had an abusive childhood. I had ponies FFS and was never hit. I knew there was some fucked up stuff about sex and boyfriends and that I had felt compelled to leave, but abusive??????? 2 years ago (once sister had recovered and returned to her exalted place in the family - me, jealous????? after Id had to support mother through all the drama what was happening to HER as a result of sister) my dad stated losing the plot......

But the acceptance of abuse in my marriage led me to looking for the root of it fairly recently, maybe about 9 months ago, and a realisation that mother is a narc too, although I had always known she was horribly controlling. Just this week I have finally worked my way through the daughters of Narcissistic Mothers website and spotted the roles we all play in her drama. She's not the worst type, she doesnt deliberately hurt, and I know it comes from her own FU childhood but she wouldnt do anything to address it because she doesnt believe she is wrong, and will serve up a classic narcissistic rage/fall into a weeping poor me mess/do something sneaky and spiteful if challenged or openly disagreed with or not allowed accross boundaries she feels a right to cross.

Knowledge is power. Recognition of behaviour and detatchment from the emotions which are being triggered is the key to remaining strong. Openess with children about your own faults and recognising abusive behaviour, and allowing them to disagree without it being a fault is the way I am moving on, hoping that the work I do on myself prevents me from following those patterns which were imprinted during childhood, and harming my children's future.

MW...god, what awful people they are!
So they aren't bothered any you - their own child - but still love your children.
Blimey.
That's big of them.
Am just on your behalf.

Mine has sent all of the kids booktokens in the hope that she'll get a Thank you call and be able to open negotiations. My dsis has just given me her email address so that that doesn't have to happen. Yay!

Working together is great!

I was asked this weekend to tell both sister and mum what I wanted for Christmas, accompanied by dual rolling of eyes when I said i didnt know. Apparantly I am 'SOOO difficult to buy for'
Told DP who was aghast. He said only someone who took no interest or no time to find out who I am or what sort of things I like could possibly say that. He found it insulting on my behalf that I needed to tell them what to get me. The money isnt the issue - she will be scrupulously 'fair' in the amount she spends. I usually end up with something smelly and a cheque. For 3 years running I got expensive smelly stuff in the 2 fragrances that I have stated many times are the only 2 I dont like. This year I gave them both a link to a website and actually pointed out items....
Now my children too are 'impossible' to buy for as well.

My mum has no idea what my kids like.
Or me for that matter.
She gives me money and I buy stuff they will like and give it to her.
Why she can't do it I have no idea...she can order form amazon as easily as I can.
Most years I wrap it for her too.
Not this year though...sis has ended up doing it:)
Last year I even wrote her cards for her (I know, I know)
Poor old dad did them, this year. Why she can't do them I have no idea.

sorry to jump in when others are going through much worse with loved ones. I am very lucky in my parents and thankful, my heart goes out to each and every one of you.

having a bit of a wobble about ILs that will hopefully pass... just need to get it off my chest really. I'm 14 weeks pregnant and none of DH's family know. There are some extended family members we are close to and we will tell them, but as much as they have been great with us, they are sad about the rift between DH and his parents and won't approve of us not telling them. Realistically news will get back to the inlaws and the phone calls, letters and aggressive visits, banging on the door and window, screaming through the letterbox will start :(

DH's mum is a classic narcissist. He is the scapegoat. I haven't seen any of his immediate family in years now, but he has only been NC for a year. The last incident involved his mother threatening to throw herself in front of a train just so he would have that 'on his conscience'. But there has been years of crap, most of which I can't go into here in case it outs me but needless to say it includes wishing him dead, wishing ill on any children he might have, lies, manipulation, aggression and a general lack of interest in him except when he can do something for her. Recent correspondence has claimed that she has had a change of heart but the old language, blaming and threatening, was all still there.

I don't want her near my DCs after seeing how she treated her own children (the golden child, SIL, is not pleasant but has paid a heavy price herself for her place). In the past she has expressly stated she 'doesn't give a shit about grandkids' which suits me. DH resolutely agrees.

So why am I so worried about (nice) family members finding out about the baby? Why am I panicking about ILs finding out, when I have resolutely say and watched Strictly while MIL battered on my windows shouting and she didn't get in? Why am I feeling stressed that people are going to judge DH (and me) for this decision?

sorry that was long. Cathartic.

Well if they tell your mil about the baby against your express wishes then they are not "nice".
Sorry.
:(

I know. They don't know the back story, might be time to tell them everything... Could just do without this and DH gets very upset. :( thanks though, badvoc. Your family sound like a treat, too :(

Nettle - I always felt unhappy as a child but couldn't put my finger on why & even as an younger adult thought they were "good" parents - like you say - materially I was well provided for & sent to loads of expensive dance/judo/gymnastics/riding lessons etc but the pieces eventually fall into place & you realise the truth.