"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's November 2012, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread <a class="break-all" href="http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/440839-but-we-took-you-to-stately-homes-a-thread-for" target="_blank">here (December 2007)</a>

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn?t have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

Follow up to pages first thread:

I?m sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don?t claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

I have cut and pasted this because I think it is fab. Just in case anyone misses the link.

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

Yy to it being swept under the carpet.
My mothers inability to be a mother meant I had to parent my siblings.
Which of course we all resented.
Our relationship has never and will never recover.
Once my parents are gone, I doubt I will see them much at all.
And the fact I am not sad about that is awful :(
I try to make myself feel better by telling myself that every family is fucked up in its own way, but....

it depends how FUp I think. There are lots who do get mostly emo needs met and treated with respect, and not have to be the parents as children . So definitely lots of mistmatching out there, but abuse we hope is not the main theme [shocked]. Fi

I know lots of people who at times find their families irritating but basically had a normal healthy upbringing & happily spend time together now.

I have no idea what normal is I guess.
:(

PrincessFionne that reminds me that my poor sister used to have incontinance problems, and used to see things in her room which I was the only one able to make go away.
Its awful really because when she was little I really loved her, but it was the unfairness of how differently we were treated and the way that it was expected that it was my responsibility to look after her in the holidays while my mum worked (which meant I couldnt work or see friends) that caused the resentment. She said thats what families do for each other. She also spent alot of time with me because I also shared her interest in her hobby, but it was because she liked the hobby, not because she wanted to spend time with ME. Once I left sister got involved in the hobby too. She went to work to facilitate the hobby, although she would say it was so I could do it. I had to put any money I earned into it too. If I won prizes, she kept the money. She has always had a bit of a thing about money tbh.
I feel bad too that I upped and went, and she stayed behind. Especially given what she said later.

what my sister said later that is.

mmm. I hear Nettle but you were not responsible nor a parent. As you'd been moulded that way in order to facilitate the adults needs (for work money, as being more important than your own to be a child), its a hard one to shake off.

I use to get awful feelings of desperation about what 'I'd' done - we'd all play as siblings which sometimes ended in squabbles (of course, I realise now!). One time something got broken and it was my fault and I was terrified and blamed a sibling who then got beaten and I could hear the screams, was awful, the sounds have faded in the last 10 years. Our 'stately house' was not a home atall, with all manner of very expensive china pieces laid out on display and everything pristine.

Oh dear for your sister, that sounds awful, poor girl, but she obviously had a deep connection of trust with you that terrifying things went away if you were there. I never saw things when awake, or had incontinence per se, but bed-wetting and the night screamings were both signs of extreme anxiety and distress, your sister was completely immersed in it, and probably not as strong as you emotionally/mentally that it overwhelmed her and led to the need for such interventions.

Oh BadvocSanta I think coming to these forums can shine some light of the reality of abnormal, and writing it down helps to process the thoughts that can be difficult to catch hold of, let alone verbalise. Through this process and other support (counsellors, etc) you do get to fully realise what normal is, how to expect to be treated (as in respecting yourself and learning boundaries about responsibilities and acceptable behaviours). I started on the journey just being extremely distraught confused and fearful, and only blaming myself for that.

I believe that if I keep processing it the insights and realisations come that will change (and certainly have changed a lot of) my inner stability,, fear - I have one monster ex that was my last 'fear', and that is thankfully fading away - calm and sense of happiness. Having patience to being with these feelings until they fade has been a good tool for me, knowing that it will pass and become different, and to just keep going for the many wonderful connections that come up and make life good.

Fi (easier than full name!)

I grew up in what most people would class as poverty.
So I dont really understand that side of abuse...the huge gulf between how things appear and how they truly are iyswim?
I know that some teachers at school were concerned for me but at the time I genuinely didn't understand why.
I may look into therapy in the new year....I am not as ok with my childhood and its effects as I thought :(

oh Bodvocsanta

When you're saying you don't understand that side of abuse [huge gulf... appear and truly are]. It happens regardless of economic circumstances IMO - as in presenting a kind and moral code to the world outside, but being abusive, disrespectful and no morals inside the home/house/shell!

On top of that though, we are highly visually led as a race, and if we see good clothes, nice car, beautifully decorated house, and ponies maybe, that will skew our perceptions of a person, linking it with being crazy stuff like 'respectable' (whatever that is!), or looking after and doing this right, being successful, etc. but on one measure only, human nature then dictates that goes across the board for everything! People who truly know what matters, see it for what it is, successful in monetary terms, without knowledge yet of how these people are connected to others. How important is family, what fun do they have together, etc. all things that relate to all families! regardless of money (appearances). We are kinda wired up to the survival mode at that level so success and social standing must mean 'good'! pah! The measure of success is 'ask the kids'.

Fi

I recently undertook a course in respect to my job. I think, due to the backgrounds of some of the other participents, that it might have been a bit more 'out there' than other courses of the same nature, but it really felt as if I had undergone a week of intensive therapy myself at the end of it.
I realised I felt stiff and awkward and although I am quite forward and confident in speaking, I felt scared and self concious when it came to singing or 'play'. I also nearly started crying during a child development and learning lecture. And at the end we had to tell the person to our left something that you appreciated about them, to which they could only reply 'thank you'. That just about killed me and I ended up a sobbing heap on one girls shoulder for quite some time.

You were so brave to do that Nettletea, I hope it was an undertaking of yours rather than pressure to attend this kind of course? Sometimes the 'just doing it', like the singing/play produces such amazing changes (altho so challenging at the time) without having to explain anything (or know anything either!), but just to let it happen. I remember years ago desperately avoiding the 'assertive' course that work kept on trying to book me onto as part of my 'management training schedule' (I think I had a sense of how awful and absolutely unbearable it would have been for me at the time).

Fi

Oh its very much something I wanted to do, and a progression into an area that I am very keen to be working within. I think it will help my own children too.

My DS had a fantastic 13th birthday, according to him. I am so proud of myself - thank god I'm able to break the cycle and make sure his childhood is full of love and good things, quite unlike mine.

Nettle - I went on a one day course for church wrt young children.
It was a very emotional day for me.
Apparently there are 6 indicators of poverty and neglect.
I counted 5 that applied to me and my childhood.
It was a very very hard day for me.
It's hard to see it in black and white :(

Christmas is coming - time to up the AD prescription!

Thats what Ive just done. After last years horrendous xmas with my family leading to going NC, its that time of year again and I am feeling my anxiety levels rocket. I can see Im not alone finding xmas pretty awful. Sorry not to comment but just need to write some stuff out of my system.

Anyway after much agitation I have decided not to send presents to my lot. Im often the only one who does - altho I know this year they may all send presents so I get left as the bad one who didnt. Even tho my family proclaim themselves to be 'relaxed' about christmas and presents etc. Anyway Im just not sending presents and I will try v hard not to feel bad.

Next issue: is that when my FiL starts cracking wierd jokes about me not speaking to my father I will (calmly) say that its been a tough decision and not funny at all. I appreciate its awkward and he may have questions but if he'd just ask me what he wants to know I will try to answer and explain but its too painful a subject for me for jokes. He will either laugh at me about this (whcih indicates hes possibly a narc too) or he'll drop the wierdness ask me some questions and we can move on.

Finally: I refuse to feel bad because I dont love my F. I know it shocks people and I dont plan to be massively public about it, but all those people who are shocked dont have my F as their father and have no idea what its like. So they can think what they like, it doesnt make me any less sane.

Wanted to respond to the 'you'll know when you have kids' line too. Ive found so strongly that hvaing children is the biggest incentive in my life to change these awful patterns. I see many of you trying for the same reasons. Good on you for making birthday parties better than your own, for trying so hard to learn to play with your children when no one taught you how, for worrying about traits you share with your parents, for keeping on at trying to be better people than your parents. It matters that we keep trying.

Firsttimer - I can totally empathise with your feelings re your father.

I feel so jealous of other families at this time of year, especially women of my age (40s/50s) who are still clearly adored by their fathers. They just don't realise how lucky they are

Firsttimer7259 thank you for your comment. We are all trying to break the cycle. The wonder on DS's face when I showed him the Angry Birds cake I'd made him was fantastic - I can only remember getting one cake when I was 5, from a friend of my DM. Otherwise, no cakes or parties.

I know what you mean about people being shocked that you don't love a parent. They always think that 'no you really don't mean that'. I know you do. Good luck with the in laws and the Xmas choices you've made.
I'm determined to have a bloody great xmas - DM was here last yr after inviting herself so it sure can't be worse than that

We're planning to have a film night Xmas eve, just the 3 of us, with nice snacks etc. Then special breakfast, Xmas dinner and special puddings. We usually see in laws so probably see them at tea time. I've spent the day putting tinsel and fairy lights all over the lounge

DS birthday today, didn't remind mother to NOT allow phone calls from SisDear, but was abundantly clear the last time.

I thought to adopt the wait and see tactic...

We shall see.

Email from father - they are "astonished & hurt to be blamed for all the problems in my life"
Fuck off & stop demanding that I shampoo your carpets then!!!!

My FIL could have written that, honestly, same tone and word choice midwife :(

File in folder marked 'nonsense'.

that was very funny to me fmnots - a good way to view it 'nonsense'

very resistent to the AD but considering as feeling so that way about impending festivities. Understand about that firsttimer Being very brave to make your decision regardless of any consequences about the gifts. Here here!

mmm... complete lack of recognition of consequences of behaviours midwife they just blame me instead!

Kiwigirl how fantastic to have had such joy and created such a wonderful experience for your DS. I feel sick at the thought of looking back on mine, as you probably do, if there were cakes I don't remember, or parties.

Hmmmm - I don't remember having a a birthday party - did I? - could I have forgotten them all?!! Strangely I do remember going to other kids' parties though!!

Oh Badvoc - I felt so sad when I read your post. The thing is I wasn't abused by my parents so I feel unworthy to complain - I was just totally ignored apart from the material stuff & the inevitable lifts needed to get rid of me for the day! They didn't keep me safe but didn't harm me directly iyswim.

you are precious and important too Badvoc and I hope you can feel that regardless of what some scales say about you. Did it feel better or worse to know this, as in getting validation of how awful it had felt? I think it must have been a pretty mixed bag of stuff actually thinking about it now. Its painful to know that my mother didn't care enough to do anything to help me when I was vomiting in pain and not sleeping. It hurts. Well it doesn't now, but it did terribly.

Which goes to what u say midwife about feeling unworthy to complain, being a 'nothing' and not caring enough to keep you safe are horrendous acts (although they are lack of an act in many eyes), but one has to make a decision to do nothing, or to ignore, and they 'actively' ignored which is massively damaging to a child to feel worthless of attention. I just didn't want to hear you somehow diminish what you suffered.

I am all done here for tonight tho, and hope that all have peaceful sleeps.