"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's November 2012, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread <a class="break-all" href="http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/440839-but-we-took-you-to-stately-homes-a-thread-for" target="_blank">here (December 2007)</a>

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn?t have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

Follow up to pages first thread:

I?m sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don?t claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

I have cut and pasted this because I think it is fab. Just in case anyone misses the link.

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

We've not heard a thing from MIL since DH told her that her behaviour towards SIL1 was abusive. My gut tells me that she's sulking and giving us the silent treatment so that we go running to her to see if she's ok.

Try not to worry about what she might be thinking or expecting, it can be intense; you said what needed to be said, the ball is in her court now, her time to speak up and step up (if she's gonna). Fi

do any out there have experience of NC but then when DC's get older contact being reinstated with them only? Fi

Hi everyone - I haven't posted much the last few days - work & Christmas/NY have been full on! Hope you all had a good time with your DCs!
Am feeling v guilty & selfish. My mother has been sobbing on the phone to my cousin about the "rift in our relationship" & asking "have I had enough space yet?". My last email from my father said "Come on now midwife. You've made your point. Let's move on now" ie brush everything under the carpet & forget about it. I can't do that but at the same time really don't feel like going over for a "chat " to have my feelings minimised sort things out. It's awful but I wish they would just cease to exist so I can forget them.

Midwife.
The rift in your relationship is caused by your parents and as they themselves have said, it's the gc they want to see, not you.
It seems to me they are very sorry that you have "found them out" but not at all sorry for the behaviour iyswim?
I know I am down...just want to sleep all the time- had 12 hours last night and wish I was still in bed :(
But that's ok. Hopefully I can sleep January away!
No contact still. I didn't send mum a card or gift yesterday and haven't rung to ask about their hospital appts.
Feels weird. But they have my siblings, so they'll be ok

Fi...I figure my kids can contact them if they want to. I am sure my dc will start asking soon about going to see the, but I will out it off as ling as I can..LA food friend suggested being NC in manageable chunks....I.e. just til half term then reasses which I am finding a very helpful way to look at things.

I have no experience as such, but being the dil even i feel guilt for not allowing dc to see pil.
Unfortunetly for me, letting the dc go on their own isn't an option (serious issues) & can't let them go with dh either as he doesn't watch them correctly, ie he catnaps on pils sofa.
When there was contact, dh fell asleep and my dc got hold of a very sharp saw from the garden, luckily no-one was hurt

Not only that but the whole reason me & dc are now nc is because of their treatment towards dc in the first place.

I don't want my children influenced or hurt by their behaviour like dh was.
The dc know their gp are not nice people and they accept why they don't see them no-more.
My eldest has even gone as far as to say she never wants to see them again.

If the gp are truly toxic and your dc remain unconditioned to their rancid behaviour, you will probably find as adults it won't be an issue as the it still remains that the gp are toxic iyswim.

My niece who is 16 apparently hasn't seen pil for a good while, and i can see why. She's old enough to see through it i suppose. Whereas sil1 trapses her other dc round there all the time, poor kids..

So, having still no information about mother's treatment on her discharge from hospital, I text her yesterday to find out how she is. She did reply to this, saying she had eaten but been sick again etc...I asked her to tell me what the hospital had said, what her treatment was etc...4 hours later still no reply so I text again and said she hadn't replied to my last text. I got one in reply, along the lines of she did reply (she definitely didn't), and that as she was very ill she didn't know who was texting her and who wasn't, and she was in and out of sleep and again stressing how ill she was. I took this as 'leave me alone, stop bothering me'. I text back saying I was just trying to find out how she was, and that I would leave her to sleep. That was Tuesday. It's now Thursday and I have heard nothing.
So, as it stands I know nothing of her treatment, how she is, nothing. All I know is it is gallstones (do they really make you that ill? I don't really know anything about them so this is a genuine question). Do I keep texting, only to be ignored and/or slapped round the face (metaphorically) and made to feel even more crap about myself and a second class offspring or do I just leave her to contact me when brother falls out of favour, which he will, it always happens...one of us is the favourite and the other 2 are ostracised.
I actually feel pretty crap this morning.

badvoc did you say you had fibromyalgia? I do too, and it's bloody crippling me at the moment, greatly contributing to my feeling of general shittiness. They do say that it can be caused by past emotional traumas and stress, a culmination of bad things in the past. I firmly believe that, it's like my body, my central nervous system, has become saturated and said enough's enough...a fuse has been blown. I hope you're not feeling too bad. x

Patches I'm sorry - don't know what to advise but wanted to give you a virtual hug.

Am a bit shocked right now - it has literally only just dawned on me that my mum is basically the victim of EA and she didn't just happily go about her life while ignoring me.

This realisation has come from reading one too many threads on MN from people in similar boats who have to be convinced that it's not ok and the kids aren't fine.

I'm still fucking angry with her for being so fucking blind though. If anything I now feel I don't have the right to be angry. Which isn't helping.

my DC not interested in seeing and too young to have visits without me (as they're toxic GP and I wouldn't leave DC alone, but haveNC myself). DC don't show any interest; actively the other way, and i haven't talked at length about, but answered truthfully any questions that have arisen.

Thee point that you made pumpkin is probably at the heart of my worries for any future contact between them, whether their toxic behaviour would be immediately recognised due to lack of conditioning, as its not the contact itself that worries me just the possibility of their toxicity infecting! As it can be very overt, but I think that only to us when wewere kids were privy to that level, but to others is the control and manipulation which is VERY hard to see, and I have FW ExP who does the same (surprisingly) and concerned v much for possible conditioning laid down there actively now!

Just saying this 'out loud' as it were tho, has helped me to reason that it is unlikely to be a threat. The threat comes I spose when much older if there's contact and then these tussles and fights over plans occur which can end up driving wedges through relationships. I know it happens now with GC in our estranged families. I would probably be the scapegoat here (as the cause of the problem dynamics) and that layered onto GC makes it difficult for them to see for themselves and becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy I reckon. so.. rambling now!.. sorry... long posting in the end.

yeah, midwife how they can turn it around have you had your space now and going to stop being so cruel to us your long suffering parents huh! I recognise the pathetic games. Poor them, they suffer so, dont they! If you're serious about continued NC just do your best to ignore it, we can't manage their reactions, but be kidn to ourself about our own.. take care.

I can ask about gallstones patches but regardless of the condition it does sound like you've tried your best which of course wil never be good enough to see how she is. She's just avoiding answering you so you will be kept hanging on and worrying about her (would be my take on it).
Fi

Patches...in answer to your question yes gallstones can make you very ill but tbh if she doesn't want to speak to you than dont waste your time.
Leave her to it. Easier said than done I know.
I was reading a book once written by a doctor and he said most GPS use the shorthand "SLS" to describe people with fibro...says it stands for "shit life syndrome" which really really angered me at the time but now....I sort of see it.
I dont give in to it. I fight it. I don't take long term pain meds as I know what path that can lead to...take today...just wanted to stay in bed. I could have cried when ds2 got up but I forced myself to take them swimming.
At least they have been out today and I have done something other than sit on the soa in my pjs. Their friends are supposed to be coming round to play at 3 so we a watching a DVD til then.
My backmisnnot good...I had a herniated disc 18 months ago and still have after effects of sod from ask of too..all in all it's buggered. And the surgery to correct it is major. Weeks being immobile, on crutches...can't have that done with 2 young kids to look after...

Badvoc I also refuse to give into it, but some days as you say all I want to do is stay on the settee because even washing my hair hurts.
My back is also my main problem...The very end of my back, my right hip and thigh. Some days it's excruciating and I would happily pay someone to cut my leg off at the hip. I have cocodamol 30/500s and diclofenac but I won't take them unless absolutely necessary. Last winter, when I started getting ill with it, I had to use a stick but so far this year I haven't. I am too stubborn/proud to use it! Yes, shit life syndrome...should read SRS - shit relationships syndrome because actually I love life, and despite everything that's happened I do feel happy with my lot. It's just when the toxics come into play that it all starts to crumble.

I still have heard nothing from her or about her.

Princess if she thinks keeping me hanging is going to bring me closer then she's in for a shock. I am becoming more and more disgusted that she chose to have a man she hates picking her up from the hospital rather than her own daughter. I don't really give a flying fig what others think about me, but if I did can you imagine the picture that paints of me as a daughter, and also of her as the head of a family that appears not to care???

Ah, to hell with it. I'm sick of feeling crap about my family, they have dominated my moods/thoughts/life for the past month and I'm soooo tired.

On the plus side, my beautiful DP is starting up a new business venture and is putting me in charge of it so we will be working alongside each other. He is such a calming influence on me, he's like oil on troubled waters. It's such a revelation to me after all the vitriol and venom I've become accustomed to. I'm sure in actual terms he's 'just' a normal man, but normality is what I crave and I have never had that.

Jessjess How awful. I guess rather than seeing things for what they were she decided to pretend. My family has done something similar and I'm staggered at the efforts made to keep up the fiction.

And yy to trying to explain to people that EA is happening and it's not ok and their kids won't be either. Sometimes I avoid those threads. They can really wind me up!

Yes SRS is a much better description!!
I know what you mean wrt your so..my dh is the same. Very calming and sensible, unlike me! :)

Remind me not to post in relationships. Other people get sympathy, I get jumped on. Forgot that SH issues sound trivial to others.

I am the wrong one to ask jess...I posted in Aibu on Xmas day!
Blimey did I get a pasting!
I agree they can sound trivial until you get the back story...which no one can in a first post.
Don't worry, it's not trivial, we know that x

It's definitely not trivial jessjess, remember that people unaffected by Toxic families don't understand, and until being with dh neither did i.
Been going through all my posts about ils from last year, and looking at them i'd say me and dh have moved on a fair bit.
Cringing at the things even i was putting up with, can't believe i allowed such a toxic family into my life. Ils from hell they are, well and truly..

Where did you post jessjess?

need me to wade in?

Jess- saw yr thread, yr OP made sense to me and at least some of the posters, don't worry. But yes, sadly as in RL most people don't 'get' it and will tend to voice of reason type advice ie downplaying yr reaction and challenging it. This assumes a 'normal' functional family which sadly is what we lack. Chin up though, lots if us understand and are here fir you. Fwiw i do think it sounds as if yr dm has suffered EA from her partner... However i also think she wont welcome your help unless shes ready if ever.

good for you Patches thats the way to go girl!

Sorry to hear that Jess just ignore, I get that when I find myself trying to explain stuff in RL, but can't make myself understood as people generally just don't get it atall.

Fi

Thanks HappyNewHissy, that's appreciated. The thread has run its course now so don't really want to resurrect it.

Basically it suddenly dawned on me that my therapist was trying to tell me maybe my mum was a victim of EA and didn't just choose not to help me. While the break from therapy has been shit, I think I've made a lot of progress on my own over the break. Thank you all for being here and hand-holding.

The thing that came up in the course of my thread was that I was trying to give examples of my dad treating me in a way I just don't think is quite right; if I ask him not to talk about something right now, he will stop and literally just sit there and glare at me. He started talking about Gary McKinnon at my nephew's birthday tea and when I said it wasn't the time he sat there and glared at me in fury.

If, say, DH had started a topic of conversation and I'd said: can we talk about this later as it's not really interesting to the kids, he would have said "Yeah you have a point," or shrugged, or something, and happily changed the subject. My point is that this isn't how adults are supposed to treat each other.

I don't think I can do anything for my mum. If I try, I will tear away years worth of survival mechanisms and do more harm than good. But - much as it pains me to say it - I suppose I have come to realise that maybe she's not just an awful enabler who chose to ignore things but that not-seeing is a survival mechanism for her as for so many others. I'm still angry, but angry for her, not with her, I guess. Because I realised I have it better - I have gone away and married a lovely man and have a better life before me than she has had.

Patches - sorry to hear about all the manipulation and game-playing. Any update on the situation?

How is everyone else doing? I've lost track a bit sorry!

And thanks Fi.

My brother has informed me today that I just need to put up with my mum for his sake In his words 'Yes she is nasty but we need to be her emotional punchbags' I have heard it all now

Noddy

What was your response to that barking mad pronouncement of your brother's?.

I have that old chestnut too Noddy about my dad's behaviour. Tbh I'm sick of my family normalising, enabling and pandering to his behaviour. It's neither normal or acceptable but they simply cannot see it.