"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's November 2012, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread <a class="break-all" href="http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/440839-but-we-took-you-to-stately-homes-a-thread-for" target="_blank">here (December 2007)</a>

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn?t have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

Follow up to pages first thread:

I?m sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don?t claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

I have cut and pasted this because I think it is fab. Just in case anyone misses the link.

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

Thank you plan. I think I am starting to get there - not engaging - just stating facts over and over. It's when I'm off the phone that I doubt myself - at the time I can see how bloody ridiculous she is - it's afterwards I think, is she really asking so much of me? Will google the triangle, haven't heard of it before. I KNOW I can stop this, it will just take time, it's just horrible knowing how little she cares.

They haven't asked how I am. They just don't care. It's not nice but I have MY OWN loving, supportive, beautiful little family. That's what I need to focus on.

Rough...so sorry you feel so down. I know that when I am physically at a low ebb - which seems often lately :( - I get more upset/affected by my family's selfishness.
Agree with the boundary advice given above.
It's the only way my parents will ever see me again.
We are off to Northumberland! Am very excited. Want to go to holy island and Alnwick castle.
I started a history degree with the OU before ds2 was born and am starting it up again. It will take me a long time to get my degree, but am not in any hurry...

Excellent news badvoc! Studying is great for you. Hard going at the time but such a sense of accomplishment!

Oh and did you know that Scapegoat is a very important role in the family - you have the power, ever tried exercising it?

Can you elaborate on that, plan ?

awful roughtyping, just awful, and when you are in such pain. You need to look after yourself first. I know that sounds selfish, but you have a DC and have to be in a good place for them, and you already have so much to manage with this pain, let alone the pain of self-indulgent parents who aren ot considering you atall.

I know there is another page on here, but just wanted to reply to plans thoughts (page 36) - I think I probably would go with the reductionist view of biological psychology, but it was my personal view on the very brief reading that I gave the link you thoughfully provided, and certainly didn't want to sideline the thread by mentioning the link briefly. I have, as I am sure others have, set up some hideous self-talk, which only comes from our parents, purely nurture (IMO), and crushingly low self-esteem/confidence and self-loathing (our self-love and esteem are also given us by kind and loving parenting - something I missed desperately). I have done many many mixed up and crazy things and cared less about myself and dreamt of living alone on the streets of london in preference for my childhood. I don't want to takethis moment particularly to drag on about my personal sufferings, just that they were pretty extreme and in the extremeness of it all I sought out ways to cope. I have thought I was going to die, etc. and lived in extreme fear, but had to learn how to sleep, comfort myself, etc. Many of them I don't know how I've done, but I have done many many years of research and i think probably received most forms of therapy from psychiatric to art! with some hypnosis and psychoanalysis along the way. If there is something specific you wanted to try to work on I'm happy for you to PM me and I'll see if theres something I've found works that could help?

good luck with degree course Badvoc OU is a great place to study, loads of support and study buddies!

take care Fi

also, now I've caught up with this page!, would also be interested to hear more about the power...scapegoat Fi

Bugbear of the day: people who say nobody can make you feel X without your consent/unless you let them.

Sure, if you're a robot with no emotional reflexes. It drives me mad when people trot this out because surely it's only human to be upset or feel intimidated or etc by certain behaviours?

(This rant was inspired by something onanother thread, but kind of applies here.)

What I mean is: I hate the insinuation that I - or any other SHer for that matter - can just magically switch off how we feel.

Jess I get what you mean.
It's my mums birthday today and she had a hospital appt.
Am going to have a quiet day with the boys baking' playing etc...

It is a quote I like a lot not, but it does leave me feeling somewhat downtrodden at the same time...I have and periods of lc/NC with my family in the past...I have fine for over 6 months without talking to my sister for example, but I always seem to given in...start talking again, be e one who forgives and forgets...
I don't know why.
Life's too short?
Well, yes it is, too short for wasting my time on them.
Maybe it's because I turned 40 this year? Maybe it's that their preference for my siblings children was just so obvious on Xmas day? I don't know.
But something has shifted.
And I don't think it will ever be the same again...

Don't feel bad.
No need.
Just ordered my text books from a amazon! Gulp....

I think it's a very profound quote, and also one I use a lot, and I think it IS relevant to SHers...but the problem is that we've been conditioned to let people make us feel bad, and therein lies the problem. We don't choose to feel bad, it's been ingrained into us and it's this response we have to change. Most 'normal' (and I mean that in the nicest possible way so please don't anyone take offence) people will react accordingly to others treating them like s**t, won't take it and will tell the offender to take a hike. SHers, on the other hand, have been taught to do the opposite, to take the crap and put up with it otherwise deal with the consequences.

My mother can be very toxic...actually, no, in the spirit of new year new me I won't make any allowances at all...she IS toxic, and I fell into a series of abusive relationships. I put up with the crap and the abuse because that is what I had been taught to do. I was abused, hit, bullied and raped...I was made homeless, I was isolated...all because my entire life had been lived in that same (albeit slightly less overt) manner.

I was lucky, I realised the path I was on and I withdrew from dating completely, 'found myself'(I hate that expression but very fitting) and came to learn that I would have to change.

After 2 years of this I felt ready to date again. I have now met the most wonderful, gentle, kind, considerate and loving man. The point of this is that I had to change...my response to other people. I could no longer give them permission to hurt me or make me feel bad. However, I have still not managed this with my mother - I guess that is the most deeply ingrained of all and will take a lot longer.

That sounds awful patches, it's amazing that you turned your life around
I see what you mean about still taking the crap off your mother, my dh is the same, for example he won't take crap from others, but will from his parents.

Like you say, it all takes time, hopefully not long for you patches.
I have seen dh treated like crap the entire time i have been with him (8yrs+), and just when i think he is making a stand, something inside him stops him.

It's funny how at first the pil seemed 'perfect', but after a year or so it started to dawn on me it was indeed a 'front' and once they really got to know me the manipulation started on me too, until about 2yrs ago when it really began to sink in how toxic they were and still are....

I am the constant forgiver and get back in toucher but haven't this time. I can see some glimmers of change in my younger brother my mum's son from another relationship. He had xmas with them and myself my sister and other brother weren't there. He said he wasn't bothered before xmas and it would be fine but I think it profoundly affected him. He joined FB today which is very unlike him and he has been messaging my sister and talking and I really think he sees that what she has done to all of us is wrong.

I wasn't referring to anything anyone said on this thread - just to be clear! I wouldn't have had a grumpy little tantrum in response to someone on here. But I actually think that whole idea (that nobody can make you feel bad without your consent) doesn't belong in any conversation about toxic or abusive childhoods. You don't get to consent to that kind of upbringing, it happens to you, whether you like it or not. To be told you shouldn't "allow" people to make you have the feelings that causes - well, that amounts to invalidation, in my mind.

It is only natural to have an emotional reaction to certain behaviours by other people. I don't think it's realistic, or fair, to expect someone to say they won't feel bullied, intimidated, rejected, hurt, etc. It puts the responsibility on the victim, as ever.

Eleanor Roosevelt said that nobody can make you feel inferior without your consent. I'm not even sure I buy that (again, it's a complete invalidation of a natural reaction in certain situations) but I suspect she was talking about political achievement, not emotional anguish.

In any case, I feel plenty of things without choosing to do so, and if I could just stop allowing people to make me feel that way I wouldn't waste money on therapy!

jessjessjess...I knew it would come out wrong...in my own clumsy way I was kind of agreeing with you, that we don't have a choice. Sorry if I got it wrong.

And thanks Pumpkin...I was just determined that the perpetrators were not going to take any more of my life from me or my dc. I just need to make that final hurdle of the mother.

agree Jess our consent is so ingrained that its non-existent and sometimes extremely difficult to find, and to find our own voices; these things are the biggest struggles in the children of the abuser. There are some (and I've been on threads of those) that believe that the person bullied is the responsible one for 'allowing' it. ARe we sure she even said that [Roosevelt], apparently she said something about similarities between hot tea and women, but she didn't .. and like you say, taken out of context says something very different. I do think our reactions to people and whether we are prepared to accept what someone says about us plays a big part in our reaction, but this must be balanced against actually 'hearing' what others say that could be negative but true and needs to be taken on board for our own growth. It is important to listen, in order to grow, but we have to be so careful who we listen to and identifying the toxic ones is the best start! ;)

This is the bit about community I think, plan that is good for recovery, as listening to other's experiences and how they made things different for them are far more likely to bring about change than reading will (although I am a huge fan of that too). Being on these threads for instance chatting to all these wonderful people and all their different experiences, triumphs (and traumas) all bring it to mind and offer ways of thinking about solutions for ourselves. In offering support we are also processing our own stuff. Its all good. (most research has good things to be drawn from it, and I'm glad you have found it so very useful - my view matters not to its value to you/others).
Ooooo post gone on too long... sorry.. take care all.

Patches, nobody got it wrong. Am just rambling! Don't mean to have a go at anyone on here.

patches 2 years in finding yourself, well done..after all that trauma (like you say, the mother won't change, we have to change our reactions so we don't suffer it any more, but that doesn't make us responsible for their behaviour) I heard a similar story recently of finding a really good partnership after that length of time. Was it anything in particularly that stood out for you that made this change, or was the catalyst to finding you?