"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's November 2012, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread <a class="break-all" href="http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/440839-but-we-took-you-to-stately-homes-a-thread-for" target="_blank">here (December 2007)</a>

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn?t have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

Follow up to pages first thread:

I?m sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don?t claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

I have cut and pasted this because I think it is fab. Just in case anyone misses the link.

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

Glad you found peace, notanorphan, sounds hard one.

Am feeling v lonely and bitter still- no reply from my mother after my mail of 6 months ago, no apology/acknowledgement/rant. Sweet FA. Shows how much she cares.. Am so hurt, so shattered from it all, so disbelieving that my birth family have willingly cut me off without any fight/effort to talk. Am in my 40s for f* sake and feel like a wronged teenager and fear dh thinks I'm behaving like one.

Meant hard won

Truth? Its our version of the truth, i guess. Always more than one though my dps seem to insist my dm's is the only one, v black and white and df a very weak man and father, i now realise.

Notan- didn't mean to sound abrupt, meant to agree w you in the main. I think we're all here because we're the ones most hurt, we've had to do the work to find the/.our "truth", my parents, at least, feeling they've done no wrong, feel no need to explore such things.

My mother's refrain is "well I don't remember it that way" which I find completely disempowers me. When I point out that her "truth" is wrong, sometimes with photographic evidence, she'll respond with this. I can't respond and it makes me seethe with impotent rage.

The small crumb of comfort I take is that I know I'm right.

How do people cope with not having had their say? This is my main issue. I don't want to see her anymore but she sent me a really nasty letter which I showed to several friends and they without exception were horrified and one of them a psychiatric nurse said she was one of the worst she had ever seen! All the things I want to say play over in my head and i have nowhere to go with them. For fairness I showed everyone the email i had sent her which provoked this and without exception none of them could see anything bad in it and in fact said it was quite a sweet and loving message

Other gems

'I can't even remember what I'm meant to have said'
'You have to understand us better'
'One day when we are dead you will see we are not bad people'
'We don't recognise you any more'
'I have earned the right not to be upset'
'There are no individuals here, just the family'

The more subtle ones, rather than the 'I wish I had never given birth to you' ones, of course...

+1 to getting those responses word for word. The closest she's come to a proper apology is ''sorry for getting things wrong' but still painting herself as a victim and us as unreasonable for being angry at her when all she was doing was trying her best.

For those who it's the in-laws are the problem. Do you ever find yourself feeling guilty for causing ructions when all you've done is point out that abusive/horrible behaviour of your in-laws? I wonder if DH will ever resent me for this. Pumpkin, your DH seems to almost resent you for standing up for him and your DCs against your in-laws.

Yes, Smellslike, very much. I feel equally guilty though that I spent a long time enabling as DH wouldn't tell me what was going on and I thought it was all a misunderstanding, and so encouraged him to contact them. :( it took me a long time to understand that I couldn't mend it for him.

Forget- understandable mistake to make. My dh spent years persuading me to "meet my parents/dsis halfway". Now he gets it and is totally anti contact unless/until they agree to our (v basic) rules- not claiming I'm mentally ill, nit discussing in front of our kids etc, very basic stuff.
Notarealorphan- thank you so much for your kind, understanding words. The kindness of strangers. And i agree, your truth is the truth and should be respected/validated, none of us should be scapegoated for this

I can't remember whether I've posted on one of these threads before, but I'm really struggling with my mum. Think she has some of the characteristics of NPD - belittling, ignoring, nothing good enough, little needling comments, explosive anger, no interest in me as a person at all etc.

I'm getting married and planning the wedding is a nightmare. I feel like I've taken a huge backwards step in terms of being able to deal with her - she's going through my two sisters as well. I'm physically shaking, stomach in knots worrying about a text/phone call or them turning up at the door. OH is so angry and can't believe how they're treating me. He got v angry last night because I began questioning whether I was being unreasonable, rude, stupid, selfish etc. (They asked me to go round, alone, to discuss wedding - every time we talk it's so they can make fun of what I have to say. They wanted me alone so that they could say all the fucking hurtful things they liked, which they'd never do in front of OH. I said they could come round to my house but they refused, hence the name calling. It all came from my sister's phone, I assume so my mum could say she knew nothing about it - plausible deniability.)

I just can't cope with it. And the worst thing is how GUILTY I feel for wanting to reduce contact. I got pregnant at 17, and I got a lot of support from my parents. But as OH said last night, at what point do I stop paying them back by allowing them to treat me like dirt? Both of my sisters decided, along with my mum, that they were going to be bridesmaids at my wedding (without being asked). One of them can't even bring herself to be civil to me - actively ignores me when at my parents' house, if she has to talk to me she spits the words at me. I am sitting crying and reading it back, it sounds like bugger all, really, but it's just constant. :(

And I know, I KNOW they won't physically hurt me but I feel like I'm very fragile inside - read one of the texts from one of my sisters aloud to OH last night and burst into tears at the bit where she told me how selfish I am. Have been told for last 10+ years how over sensitive I am to everything.

Roughly - this is awful behaviour. Your sisters have a responsibility for their actions, don't absolve them, but it sounds like your mum is the puppet master. Your last word sums up the problem I think, for so many of us. It isn't an argument or a falling out. Often it isn't to do solely with past events. It's constant. And if we have gone NC then resume contact, it will be constant again.

It's the tiring, constant tenterhooks that people don't understand. I completely know where you're coming from. Keep away from them on your wedding day, surround yourself with friends. Even better, disinvite them! I wasn't able to do that but MIL ignored me anyway so I had a great day :)

Sorry, just reading back other posts and more stuff springing to mind. My mum was once talking about how poor her memory was and I said mine was bad too, and that there was lots of my childhood I remembered very little of and she turned round and shouted at me "Is that the thanks I get for raising you"

She still regularly brings up the fact that I got pregnant at 17 - despite at the time her telling me to 'grow up', that she'd got pregnant at 23 and it wasn't that much of difference

Rt- could u stand up to them? Choose own bridesmaids, insist on talking in yr home only w dp there? They sound v bullying

Thank you forgets. I spke to my aunt (my mum's sister) about it today and she gets the same nervous feeling waiting to hear from my mum. Her husband has said to her, why does she keep jumping through hoops? Why is she like a puppy getting kicked and going back for more? etc

It is constant and has gone on for so long. I know my mum has a lot of issues to deal with because of her own parents but I don't think tht means she can treat us any way she likes? One of her closest (actually, one of her only) friends committed suicide this year - someone who I've known my whole life. She was obviously very upset. Sadly, a few weeks ago one of my friends also committed suicide but if I mention it she gets all sniffy and says I need to get a grip.

Salbertina, I said that they could come round to my house last night if they needed to speak, I was told it "wouldn't be fair on OH & DS" despite them saying they wanted to "just help me plan" the wedding. I replied that it's OH's wedding too, I was told I was being rude and ungrateful.

roughtyping - these people try to wreck happy events for us, like weddings. If they can't make it about them they'll do their best to make sure it's not going to make us happy. They play on the guilt we feel to make us agree to their demands. It's almost as if you have to be put back in your place as the awful/difficult child, not someone who has been chosen by their OH to be their wife.

I also think that it's a time when society says we need to be close to our mothers, and the image shown to us in the media is a mother/daughter bonding experience. I know I was sucked into this, and was horribly hurt. Your mother won't change into a reasonable human being because you're getting married. She'll behave worse because she can get away with it - I mean who would exclude their poor, loving mother from their nuptials? Your sisters are doing the same because she has set them a dreadful example.

I still carry a lot of hurt about my wedding because of the way my mother behaved. What matters though is that we did get married. My mother couldn't come between me and DH, admittedly not in the way we had planned, so she didn't win.

And your last comment about being sensitive - there is nothing wrong with being sensitive to vitriol, you're allowed to be sensitive to it. Frankly someone with superhuman self esteem would be sensitive to the hate you get sent.

You can keep flogging that dead horse or you can jump on your very own and fly off into the future where there are people waiting to value you.

Having avoided my mum for most of the holidays, she has hunted me down with texts and unexpected visits over the last few days and I am appalled by how much I have let it get to me. I'm loving that comment notarealorphan and I'm going to hang on to that in 2013! Thank you!

And this one:
I'm not in this for a who's right who's wrong playground episode, I wanted my feelings acknowledged and addressed. Will NEVER happen....

Exactly this. I thought I'd accepted this, but today I'm feeling I have a huge way to go in truly finding acceptance.

Bloody new year, it often has this effect....

May you all find your own peace and/or acceptance in 2013 - happy Hogmanay xx

Rough, none of that surprises me, she sounds like a narcissist of the highest order. How dare these people steal attention away from her by committing suicide? (Awful, terrible thing to think - but I'd bet that is what's going on).

I think you'll be doing yourself a huge favour if you start 2013 as you mean to go on. Be assertive and calm, limit or stop contact if you need to. And tell your sisters where to get off. Take back some control. Glad to hear some relatives are on side, too. Good luck.

Foxtrot have cried reading your post. I think you're totally right. Even stuff I know she agrees with me on she goes out of her way to disagree, because it's me that's suggested it.

My aunt said today she thinks people at work are very wary of her (they work together) because they never know what sort of mood she'll be in,

She only texts to ask how DS is/ask or demand something about the wedding.

She blames me when she doesn't tell me things, has expectations of me that I have no idea about.

Thank you all so much for replying and not telling me I'm imagining it. I often feel that if I write it down - e.g. if I text a friend after an incident - it sounds like nothing and it DOES sound like I'm totally over reacting, then I do feel really stupid.

My sisters drive me crazy but I know it's not totally their fault - you stay on my mum's side when she wants you there otherwise you're ripped apart