"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's November 2012, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread <a class="break-all" href="http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/440839-but-we-took-you-to-stately-homes-a-thread-for" target="_blank">here (December 2007)</a>

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn?t have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

Follow up to pages first thread:

I?m sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don?t claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

I have cut and pasted this because I think it is fab. Just in case anyone misses the link.

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

notareal, that's brilliant. I passed on that suggestion to SIL1, that she ask specifically what she needs to forgive. SIL1 and MIL are both practicing Christians, and forgiveness is very much the thing to do - how can you forgive somebody who believes they have done you no harm and doesn't see anything wrong with their actions?

DH has just this now sent a text to MIL calling her out on her abusive behaviour towards SIL1. She will not have been expecting that.

Spot on notarealorphan. When MIL did one of her fake apologies (usually along the lines of 'you would blame the weather on me if you could so fine, it's all my fault' and later said 'I've said sorry'. I did ask her what was she apologising for. Her response? 'Well I don't know, do I, it's HIM (DH) that thinks I can't do anything right, ask him!' She genuinely did not see the problem.

foxtrot welcome and well done for posting. Your sister sounds horrendous, though part of me thinks your parents are even worse for enabling - it's probably all she knows. How sad. You're supposed to be going to a party tomorrow, but you know you don't have to, right?
Something I did notice is that you've said your rage comes out at your sister because you 'can't with parents' (argue, spat). I wonder if you too feel that it's your lack of relationship or worse with your mother that's the main problem but you don't feel able to express it. Maybe something to talk over with your therapist (another thumbs up, don't quit if you have issues you need to work through).

Contrary to what all my friends etc thought my mother kept up the crap and didn't even send ds a xmas card . I have decided enough is enough and will not let her affect me like this again Not sure what to do about ds though although he seems strangely unbothered. I remember when he was about 8 he said 'Why is nanny so mean to everyone' Out of the mouths of babes eh?

Thanks so much for all of the responses, I felt apprehensive about posting here first incase I wasn't believed because I'm usually met with the response of 'but that's your mother' nobody really believes that someone who is supposed to care for you could hurt you so much. My best friend has seen it first hand and knows how nasty she is, and my DP fully understands as unfortunately his mother is toxic too and he's had NC for about a year and a half (until now as she's in hospital so he's all over the place struggling with what to do).

Venting has been really good, like a weight was lifted just by sharing it with others if that makes sense? Although I could go on for days describing the toxic things she has done throughout my life. My father died when I was a baby and she alienated me from his family so I was entirely on my own with her. She was abusive, neglectful, and at times very mentally unstable (one year for my 8th birthday she 'forgot' about it until late afternoon for example, and still laughs about it). I hope it's ok to share my experiences here, it's invaluable to be able to speak about these things with others who just get it.

I wouldn't ever see about having someone speak to her to stop it all, it would make things a million times worse, honestly. Right now she's very focussed on my DS and trying to see him. He's almost 6 and I haven't spoken to her since he was 1 (just after she missed his 1st birthday as she had stayed up until 8am that day drinking so was too drunk/hungover to come) so he has never had a meaningful relationship with him, I think it's her way of trying to gain control over me by forcing me to let her be close to him. I found out that exP was secretly taking DS to see him and she caused a lot of damage in those 6 months so it's not out of spite that I keep him away from her, I'm trying to protect him.

It's awful to read about so many other people who have to go through this too, I thought I was the only one until I met DP. One question that goes through my mind all the time is why. Why are some parents/siblings/people so toxic? I think if I had that answer I would be able to accept and deal with it all much better iyswim?

I have realised my mother has always been like this. She fell out with her parents and 2 brothers when she was very young and they were lovely people but didn't dance to her tune so she cut them out. A narcissist is unable to see anything from anyone else's POV you have done nothing it is all them. I was the very last person to ever stand up to my mother and even then I did it in a nice way and still she cut me dead. By all accounts she became like a limpet to my stepdad immediately after that but within weeks was back to treating him like shit poor thing. He will never leaver her though as I think she targeted him as a 'type' who would fear her.

i like very much.
Thank you for posting that x

So very true notreal, very true.
That is exactly the sort of explanation i need to show dh, when he next tries to get me to give into pil.

Likewise, fil has never once so much apologised for his behaviour and only bought me a small gift, because he had to, never once has "sorry" been mentioned!

Mil has apologised, but not in person, only by text and that is only because she wanted something in return: diy from dh & to regain contact with gc.
Yet she continued her behaviour on many occasions after we forgave her and after all the fallouts has yet to change her ways.

I wouldn't call the above 'apologies', just sucking up to regain control once they has lost it.

Because there has been so many incidents and realisations of dhs awful child, i now see no reason to forgive as it wouldn't be meant on my part or theirs.

That article was very interesting notreal, i will bookmark it for dh to read next time the pils guiltrip him about the gc.
Sums up narcissicists to a T, infact it sums up pil behavior

In confronted my mother once (by email, I'm not that brave to do it face to face and have panic attacks if I'm near her) and detailed some examples of just how toxic she is/was when I was growing up and more recent too. I had no apology, instead I got pretty much every excuse that is detailed in the opening post of this thread. She had life so hard, she tried her best, how dare I question her, it wasn't all that bad, I should have been given up for adoption. No acceptance of anything she done, or how she made me feel.

It was always brushed under the carpet in our household, I was the first to stand up and say 'no this isn't right' and ive been thoroughly punished and isolated for doing so. My sister is younger than me and told me one day that she didn't remember anything negative that I had said about our childhood and didn't think it was that bad. When I brought up some things she just said 'those are things I don't want to remember and should be forgotten.' My mother will never apologise as she never has to accept she is in the wrong, and my family will continue to play along.

Ever had an apology.
Never will.
I had had, variously...
"You will understand when you have kids"
"We did our best"
"I dont remember that"
"You weren't perfect"
"That didn't happen"
:(

Bashful.
Yes, I am the only person in my family to stand up and say "this isn't right"
And god knows they have punished me for it...

Heard all of those badvoc, as well as fake apologies. There is a definite script with these people, I wouldn't have thought there were so many people like my MIL out there :(

Great posts notarealorphan, helpful link re Ngrandparents, thank you

Thanks for the article notreal. I've had those same responses too badvoc, some word for word. Why do toxic parents follow similar patterns?

My mum will never apologise either but she has only one friend now an ex colleague who she has told so many shall we say untruths to. I am sorely tempted to put her straight on a few things but realise that is vengeful and would do harm rather than good. But her work colleagues had no idea about her 'real' life and she worked in social services

My mother actually said she thought i would have more empathy with her once i had kids. It is since i have had ds that her behaviour has been highlighted as abusive. She knows nothing

Well dh has never had apology
: your childhood was great
: your father meant well, however scary he was
:"i don't know what i did to deserve this"
:"killers get treated better"-words from mils mouth.
:"your dad is old son, he could have a heartattack, if you don't do x,y,z"
:"i don't give a f whether i ever see my fing grankids again"(fil)
:"have you been a good boy"
:"you look like a teletubbie", "lose some weight" (obese mil to average dh)
"We are your parents, son"