"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

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It's November 2012, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread <a class="break-all" href="http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/440839-but-we-took-you-to-stately-homes-a-thread-for" target="_blank">here (December 2007)</a>

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn?t have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

Follow up to pages first thread:

I?m sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don?t claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

I have cut and pasted this because I think it is fab. Just in case anyone misses the link.

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

Pumpkin I really feel for you because most of us on this thread are aware of the issues with our own families while you are dealing with the toxic parents AND the child, as it were, and are in a 'can the whole world really be wrong' type situ (answer: yes it can). For what it's worth I think you are absolutely doing the right thing. I will reiterate my suggestion of seeking some sort of counselling for yourself.

I wondered if I could possibly ask for some advice for a friend? From those of you who have gone NC. A friend went NC from her whole family a while ago and if it comes up pei

Again with the premature button press sorry!

Friend has gone NC fairly recently from parents and brothers. If this comes up people either

• Don't believe they would mistreat the oldest child and not the others so assume she's exaggerating or was somehow the problem
• Ask if it was really that bad
• Say "but it's your family" - when of course they haven't acted like it

She was quite upset by one so called friend who seemed convinced she was making it up, and I wondered if you could suggest any good ways of explaining it / rebuffing twattish comments like that as and when it comes up. I don't have any good advice currently, it's not like she tells everyone but sometimes it does come up.

Jessjess depending on the person in question, I might explain that just because I haven't told them how bad things were doesn't mean they weren't bad. (I have had some very intense soul-baring talks with DO. he knew some of it but by no means all.)

If the person knew my stories and didn't believe me I think I might go looking for new friends. But then, I cut contact because not getting validation about my experience was killing me. So I might be a bit extreme because of that.

Agh! DO is supposed to be DH.

Jessjess councilling would be good but at the moment i don't have the funds and dh is never going to agree to going himself

I just find it so shocking that the whole family fall for it everytime.
Mil cries and they all run rings around her trying to make her happy.
The woman was never happy, even before the fallout, she had to be centre of attention along with fil.

When will this visious cycle end, pil stamp their feet and everyone comes calling, apparently fil hates me-oh well it's not as if the feeling isn't mutual....i have lots more reasons to hate him, 1:for beating my dh as a kid, 2: for insisting along with the whole bunch of ils at gatherings that he takes my youngest for a nap with him in bed (weird) 3: being a narcisscist bastard, 4: for tripping my kids up so they'd fall, 5:for making a scene everytime mil got told the word NO, 6: for being really nasty to my nieces and treating them like slaves around the house 7: begging and insisting on very expensive gifts for their birthdays knowing we can't afford it 8:slagging my eldest off about always bringing her useless bio father into it infront of her 9: buying nothing for my dc, yet always buying for other gc 10: making dh feel depressed with it all 11: making my life a misery due to all the above

Awful toxic family and they are only some of the things they have done

JessJess I think I would show the friend some literature about toxic parents and also scapegoating. I would explain about scapegoating being a common phenomenon - like in work, schools etc as well -often folk can recognise it in these environments. Then I would explain it happened to me in my family- and has had really bad effects on me. If the friend doesnt identify with you it is time to move on I would say.

Pumpkin, number 2 is extremely worrying. Sorry to point that out.

Yes number 2 is one of the many reasons why the dc don't see pil anymore.
I just found it odd, that although my dd had a perfectly good pram to sleep in that this big hoo ha was made about her napping in with fil and because i didn't comply had sil, fil, mil, the aunt going on & on & on.
I haven't been round pil since as i found this situation very disturbing and even if there wasn't anything untoward, my dd was old enough to have been able to roll of the bed...

Grrrr. Help. Simple responses for family members who don't understand NC? Don't really want to have to go into the reasons, just happy to keep it simple, but increasing pressure to 'give them a ring, it's Christmas', 'new year, new start'. Still haven't announced pregnancy to DH's family for this reason.

Is there an easy, catch all way out of it or do we have to go into the long and nasty story every time? Don't think the people involved would 'approve' of NC even if the abuse was physical to be honest so don't want to get into a discussion of rights and wrongs.

It is helpful notarealorpham, thanks. Your post above mine that I'm just seeing now is helpful too! Quite like asking them about ILs reaction, of course it's all on us to 'fix'. These relatives aren't toxic, they are old fashioned and mean well but know very little of the problems.

I'm not interested in protecting the ILs but as I say I think they would expect obligation to come before any wrongs done to us, and my main worry is that their view could set DH back, as he minimises his own feelings anyway. :(

I will definitely use those. Thanks :)

Isn't it awful when toxic families will not accept NC
Mil needs to realise that why she carries on with this charade, it makes me stronger in keep dh away from her further more.

It has got so bad, dh has his phone on airoplane mode today and has gone out without it. I had to snoop me being me and switch it on just to see whether there was any more texts of aunt-but there wasn't, although he has recieved a text of mil saying he was nasty to her and people get less for killing someone. Her attitude absolutely stinks, ive deleted it as i don't want him reading it when he gets home as it will send him back into his moodswings again

I mentioned the toxic parents book to him last night, he just laughed at me
Atleast he seems to be going forward somewhat as he got me to exchange messages for him to aunt last night & doesn't see much of the ils now.
The next positive step i'm waiting for is dh to change his phone number, once he makes that decision the harrassment should be over as much as it can be.

I'm finding this week very hard with them all continually contacting dh & going on endlessily about the unfairness of it all and how pil need the chance to say sorry as it's christmas, fgs the answer is no!

All you NCs, how long did it take for them to stop harassing you?
Another thing is others, including other ils think its all nonsense, but it isn't nonsense at all, dh is treated appallingly bad as were the gc when in contact.

I hate the fact that people cannot see these toxic families for what they are, and continue to mislead the child into thinking their upbringing etc is normal when to a very close outsider like me for example no it isnt

Thanks, and you're right, I think there's so many layers of dysfunction in his family it's easy to think that people are fine when they aren't, just because they aren't abusive if you see what I mean.

I suspect the ILs were in contact with them over Christmas, laying it on thick about how they've been abandoned and how heartbroken they are... Usual lies and manipulation. Instead of thinking 'forget's DH isn't like that, he wouldn't cut people off without very good reason', MIL gets believed as she is willing to outright lie :(

Ah well. I think turning it round like you suggested is a good idea as it allows them to feel 'helpful', and fobs them off. Bloody difficult at times this! I am going to get DH to read your invalidation post, notarealorphan, very good advice indeed.

Oh forgetmenot I feel for you & your dh as we are also getting the stepping up with pressure thing "because its christmas...", tiring isn't it.
And i know what you mean by setting him back as my dh is going through the same.

I thought we were winning the battle in being left alone until christmas approached, but now there is added harrassment

Like your 'old fashioned' relatives, my dh's aunt is very much the same in her view that NC is nonsense and that pil should be forgiven as "life is too short..."
But aunt isn't here all year round to see their destruction on dhs morale.
She doesn't see the tears my dd has because of mils actions, nor does she see the depression dh suffers due to his parentige or many of the other things that go on.
She sees mil crying and assumes like many strangers "poor little old lady banned from seeing gc at christmas time"- But it isn't that simple...

pumpkin: 'I hate the fact that people cannot see these toxic families for what they are, and continue to mislead the child into thinking their upbringing etc is normal when to a very close outsider like me for example no it isnt'

THIS X1000!

notarealorphan it's terrible when accidents happen to contact devices isn't it. Like the time our emails started redirecting all their mails to the spam folder. We haven't solved that glitch :)

pumpkin your posts always make me feel really sad, because I could have written most of them, it is horrendous. It's funny that life is too short for NC, but not too short to stop treating your own kids like shit... It's tiring isn't it having to always be the level headed one. I think I replied to one of your earlier posts with a description of a total blowout I had with DH :( I felt terrible but sometimes it just gets too much. I can have tantrums too, you know! :)

notarealorphan are you my DH?

Nice idea notreal and i would follow through with it, but he has phone insurance

I'm looking forward to next week too, but it's a shame ils stamped their nasty footprint on christmas yet again, so much so i cannot wait for the clocks to chime at midnite tonight!
New Year New Life, is what i say and i'm hoping that as the festivities are ending dh will be left alone!

Funny how 4 months have passed where mil has done nothing, naf all in pursuing gc and she thinks that she can have them for christmas, when children are not just for christmas, they are for life. You must treat them nicely forever and i won't give just because of the time of year it is.

Funny thing is this a woman who walked past her own gcs in the supermarket, cares a lot, not ...

Although the aunt is not one bit religious she seems to think, "people should get as many chances possible or it would be a sad world to live in"-yes of course, i think it is more of a sad world to live in that children can be mistreated and scapegoated their entire life just to make "mummy & daddy" happy.

I've considered posting on here before but have always stalled.

We've just done our first "family" Christmas in 4 years, and whilst it wasn't as bad as the last (when I'd been awful enough to get married) it was still a very stressful and tense time. I said last time that we wouldn't do it again. This time I mean it - I'm not spending Christmas with those people again.

A lot of the drama in our family revolves around my younger sister, who at 31 is the worst behaved teenager I've ever met. My mother enables the behaviour, and even encourages it, and I find that often a lot of my rage comes out at my sister as you're allowed to spat with siblings in a way you can't with parents.

I asked why both parents pander to her so much this year and was told that it's because my mother feels guilty following her return to work when my sister was 6. She worked from 9:30 until 3pm, term times only. And I and my older sister (aged 8 and 11) were at boarding school a mile from the family house. When I suggested that sending us to school was probably more of a big deal than being at work when younger sis was out of the house I was told "you begged to go, Foxtrot". I have no recollection of begging, nor does my older sister, but we do remember younger sister doing so, though she wasn't sent. I fail to understand how anyone thinks an 8yo should be the one who chooses her schooling regardless.

I've been in therapy for 18 months now and was considering stopping after Christmas, but wonder whether I need to carry on. I still can't forget, or forgive, or even understand the treatment I receive. I am still the black sheep well into adulthood (I have received hate mail from relatives detailing things I do to upset my mother) and nothing I can do is right.

I'm supposed to be going over for a New Year Party tomorrow. Ick.