"But We Took You To Stately Homes!" - Survivors of Dysfunctional Families

[DontstepontheMomeRaths]

Thread opener here: webaunty.co.uk/mumsnet/
You may need to right-click and 'unblock' it after downloading it.

It's November 2012, and the Stately Home is still open to visitors.

Forerunning threads:
December 2007
March 2008
August 2008
February 2009
May 2009
January 2010
April 2010
August 2010
March 2011
November 2011
January 2012

Please check later posts in this thread for links & quotes. The main thing is: "they did do it to you" - and you can recover.

Welcome to the Stately Homes Thread.

This is a long running thread which was originally started up by 'pages' see original thread <a class="break-all" href="http://www.mumsnet.com/Talk/relationships/440839-but-we-took-you-to-stately-homes-a-thread-for" target="_blank">here (December 2007)</a>

So this thread originates from that thread and has become a safe haven for Adult children of abusive families.

One thing you will never hear on this thread is that your abuse or experience was not that bad. You will never have your feelings minimised the way they were when you were a child, or now that you are an adult. To coin the phrase of a much respected past poster Ally90;

'Nobody can judge how sad your childhood made you, even if you wrote a novel on it, only you know that. I can well imagine any of us saying some of the seemingly trivial things our parents/siblings did to us to many of our real life acquaintances and them not understanding why we were upset/angry/hurt etc. And that is why this thread is here. It's a safe place to vent our true feelings, validate our childhood/lifetime experiences of being hurt/angry etc by our parents? behaviour and to get support for dealing with family in the here and now.'

Most new posters generally start off their posts by saying; but it wasn't that bad for me or my experience wasn't as awful as x,y or z's. 

Some on here have been emotionally abused and/or physically abused. Some are not sure what category (there doesn?t have to be any) they fall into.

NONE of that matters. What matters is how 'YOU' felt growing how 'YOU' feel now and a chance to talk about how and why those childhood experiences and/or current parental contact has left you feeling damaged falling apart from the inside out and stumbling around trying to find your sense of self-worth. 

You might also find the following links and information useful if you have come this far and are still not sure whether you belong here or not.

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0553814826/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0553814826&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">'Toxic Parents' by Susan Forward.</a>

I started with this book and found it really useful.

Here are some excerpts:

"Once you get going, most toxic parents will counterattack. After all, if they had the capacity to listen, to hear, to be reasonable, to respect you feelings, and to promote your independence, they wouldn't be toxic parents. They will probably perceive your words as treacherous personal assaults. They will tend to fall back on the same tactics and defenses that they have always used, only more so.

Remember, the important thing is not their reaction but your response. If you can stand fast in the face of your parents' fury, accusations, threats and guilt-peddling, you will experience your finest hour.

Here are some typical parental reactions to confrontation:

"It never happened". Parents who have used denial to avoid their own feelings of inadequacy or anxiety will undoubtedly us it during confrontation to promote their version of reality. They'll insist that your allegations never happened, or that you're exaggerating. They won't remember, or they will accuse you of lying.

YOUR RESPONSE: Just because you don't remember, doesn't mean it didn't happen".

"It was your fault." Toxic parents are almost never willing to accept responsibility for their destructive behavior. Instead, they will blame you. They will say that you were bad, or that you were difficult. They will claim that they did the best that they could but that you always created problems for them. They will say that you drove them crazy. They will offer as proof the fact that everybody in the family knew what a problem you were. They will offer up a laundry list of your alleged offenses against them.

YOUR RESPONSE: "You can keep trying to make this my fault, but I'm not going to accept the responsibility for what you did to me when I was a child".

"I said I was sorry what more do you want?" Some parents may acknowledge a few of the things that you say but be unwilling to do anything about it.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I appreciate your apology, but that is just a beginning. If you're truly sorry, you'll work through this with me to make a better relationship."

"We did the best we could." Some parents will remind you of how tough they had it while you were growing up and how hard they struggled. They will say such things as "You'll never understand what I was going through," or "I did the best I could". This particular style of response will often stir up a lot of sympathy and compassion for your parents. This is understandable, but it makes it difficult for you to remain focused on what you need to say in your confrontation. The temptation is for you once again to put their needs ahead of your own. It is important that you be able to acknowledge their difficulties without invalidating your own.

YOUR RESPONSE: "I understand that you had a hard time, and I'm sure that you didn't hurt me on purpose, but I need you to understand that the way you dealt with your problems really did hurt me"

"Look what we did for you." Many parents will attempt to counter your assertions by recalling the wonderful times you had as a child and the loving moments you and they shared. By focusing on the good things, they can avoid looking at the darker side of their behavior. Parents will typically remind you of gifts they gave you, places they took you, sacrifices they made for you, and thoughtful things they did. They will say things like, "this is the thanks we get," or "nothing was ever enough for you."

YOUR RESPONSE: I appreciate those things very much, but they didn't make up for ....

"How can you do this to me?" Some parents act like martyrs. They'll collapse into tears, wring their hands, and express shock and disbelief at your "cruelty". They will act as if your confrontation has victimized them. They will accuse you of hurting them, or disappointing them. They will complain that they don't need this, they have enough problems. They will tell you that they are not strong enough or healthy enough to take this, that the heartache will kill them. Some of their sadness will, of course, be genuine. It is sad for parents to face their own shortcomings, to realize that they have caused their children significant pain. But their sadness can also be manipulative and controlling. It is their way of using guilt to try to make you back down from the confrontation.

YOUR RESPONSE: I'm sorry you're upset. I'm sorry you're hurt. But I'm not willing to give up on this. I've been hurting for a long time, too."

Helpful Websites

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.alice-miller.com/index_en.php" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Alice Miller</a>

<a class="break-all" href="http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Personality_disorder" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Personality Disorders definition</a>

Follow up to pages first thread:

I?m sure the other posters will be along shortly to add anything they feel I have left out. I personally don?t claim to be sorted but I will say my head has become a helluva lot straighter since I started posting here. You will receive a lot of wisdom but above all else the insights and advice given will 'always' be delivered with warmth and support.

Happy Posting (smithfield posting as therealsmithfield)

I have cut and pasted this because I think it is fab. Just in case anyone misses the link.

More helpful links:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.daughtersofnarcissisticmothers.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Daughters of narcissistic mothers</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://outofthefog.net/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Out of the FOG</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.vachss.com/av_dispatches/disp_9408_a.html" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">You carry the cure in your own heart</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.havoca.org/HAVOCA_home.htm" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Help for adult children of child abuse</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.pete-walker.com/" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Pete Walker</a>

Some books:

<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0749910542/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0749910542&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Homecoming</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1439129436/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1439129436&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Will I ever be good enough?</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0060929324/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0060929324&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">If you had controlling parents</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0385304234/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0385304234&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">When you and your mother can't be friends</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/1572245611/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=1572245611&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Children of the self-absorbed</a>
<a class="break-all" href="http://www.amazon.co.uk/gp/product/0671701355/ref=as_li_ss_tl?ie=UTF8&linkCode=as2&camp=1634&creative=19450&creativeASIN=0671701355&tag=mumsnet&ascsubtag=mnforum-relationships-1621664-But-We-Took-You-To-Stately-Homes-Survivors-of-Dysfunctional-Families" rel="nofollow" target="_blank">Recovery of your inner child</a>

Both your parents sound toxic Bedtime

Let's just forget about everything & move on.

midwife that did make me chuckle. Yes, "let's" forget everything, shall we? How much more clearly can he say: "I don't want to examine any issues ("let's forget everything") and I want things back the way they were, when they were convenient for me ("move on")."

Every person I know with toxic parents squirms/rejects/cries at compliments, Dontstep

I see the squirming now as I sign that something is poking my inner gremlin - the one that tells me I'm worthless and unlovable. Let the gremlin squirm! One day I will succeed in shrinking it to insignificance.

Meanwhile, the squirming is such a useful sign that something is happening right at that moment that I can use as an occasion to handle things differently. If that makes sense. So when I feel that familiar squirming, I consciously work to let the compliment in now. Instead of telling the compliment-maker that they must be mistaken, as I used to do.

Oh dear bedtime v sad for you. I know you feel alone with this, but I think we all have experienced that on here, these toxic parents are just great at isolating us. Your feelings are valid. It is important to know that you have these feelings, even if you cannot yet apportion them to anyone. Having said that, children who have been loved, comforted and encouraged don't turn out with low self-esteem. We look to our parents for this stuff and if you don't have it, well we know why that is (even if you are very unclear about being able to pinpoint that right now - you sounded in the first post I read to be really confused about that).
Our parents give us our sense of love and worth, so if ours is missing who shouldwe look to???? not far!

Im feeling very miserable and down right now, and having a phase of trying to keep a grip of all the horrible memories and sadnesses right now, and sometimes find it too difficult to come here because of all the struggles, but I felt compelled to try to reach out to you in your fog and confusion right now.

What an awful thing for your mother to say, instead of enjoying the moment of the display of love you were giving to your sister.

I was really pleased to see how much you were writing and getting out, keep doing it. and, although is it great to feel validated and have people respond to all your worries, questions, its more important that you write them down somewhere like here (which processes them out of your head). I think you can see from the postings on here, you're not actually alone in this atall as there are so many sufferings in very similar ways, leading to the confusions and insecurities you talk of. Especially where the parents both collude to support the EA (either by ignoring or actively blaming the child for the other parents behaviour as in my case).

I second what another poster said about reading this post from the start. When I did this I realised I recognised a lot of the behaviours and treatments and completely empathised with the awful feelings. This is the only place these feelings have finallly made 'sense' to me. It makes it real for you and takes it out of your head (even tho it can feel like one step forward and two back sometimes and a roller coaster, etc).

I hope there is something in her or others posts to keep you going and feel heartened by? You are now looking in the right direction.

The most important thing now is to look after yourself, reduce your stress, which is to stay away from toxic parent situations when it all feels too much (they will just have to understand or not, but not your worry). You need to just worry about you right now and find some relaxation somewhere, a something for you that you enjoy to start on the road to getting some balance back in your life, it will help you with the difficult stuff.

take care

compliments used to make me feel sick, or even just being 'noticed' I would want to turn inside out. Then I decided I would just say thank you (regardless of how I felt), then that I would consider afterwards what had been said and accept how someone had seen something I couldn't yet... I'm still not sure I actually believe, but I am getting closer. For this cause I have also found it useful to keep compliments wherever I can, to use when I feel really bad about myself to bouy me up a bit. Fi

Would it be ok if I joined you all? I'm having a bit of a hard time at the moment and need someone to talk to about my toxic mother. I've not spoken to her in 5 years but can't get her out of my life. She makes it her mission to cause me pain and does everything she can to hurt me, spreads horrid lies about me, turns people against me, I've no family now because of the horrid lthjnhs she's made up about me, and now she's teamed up with my abusive ex to try and hurt me.

I had to stay in a woman's refuge to get away from him and she managed to find out where it was and told him, I had to get a non-molestation order to keep him away from me and she was a witness against me and was supporting him and telling the solicitor and courts all sorts of stuff despite me not speaking to her for about 2 years previous to the breakup with ex so she hadn't actually been a witness to anything iyswim? She had just been making it all up out of maliciousness towards me. Now my ex has been dragging me through court over contact and she's been on his side helping him.

I feel so alone and helpless, like I'm the young child again growing up with her abuse and there's nothing I can do to get away from her. I know it sounds like I'm unreasonable and am attacking her and I don't want to seem like I'm jumping in with all these horrid accusations about her (and namechanged incase I wasn't believed) but she really does act like she has a vendetta against me and wants to see me struggle.

Sorry, I didn't mean for that to be such a long post, what I want to know is how can you truly be free from a toxic parent? Are you ever free or are you always under their grip and you just have times where it seems like you're free of them?

I also meant to add (sorry again) that I'm pregnant with a daughter and am terrified of history repeating itself. I've no idea what a healthy mother/daughter relationship is and am worried about hurting my daughter in the same ways that she done to me. I've already got a son but that was all new territory and I didn't have the same fears, but now I'm so scared of doing it all wrong.

not alone butterfly. Just wanted to respond quickly before my laptop goes to sleep... so not long. You have done loads already then to have NC for last 5 yrs. I've had to learn to really ignore all the stuff that has been said about me (same situation - no family now as a result).

She sounds just appalling and you will over time feel you are freeing yourself from her.

If you are scared about doing it wrong you will be trying to seek ways of doing it right (and that is what amkes the difference between you and her - she just sounds disgusting and awful and I'm sorry to hear that you've had to suffer all this)
Fi

Most importantly is your current partner supporting you (and a good father, role model for your children)?

my toxic parents, altho still poisoning family, do have less influence over them now as they have heard a bit of the other side now too and are NOT in my life atall if that helps?

It sounds like you need to get her excluded as a reliable witness, and have WA help you, especially as you went to a refuge to keep you and your children safe from him!

Thanks princess, I know it sounds like I've made it all up and reading it back some of the stuff does sound very far fetched but this is what she is like. She's told my family such horrible untrue things about me and now has told them that it's me that has been cruel to my ex too, even told them that it was me hitting him and being abusive towards him which they believe. Even though the restraining order was granted against ex and I've so much evidence that I'm telling the truth, nobody will believe me and it just makes me look even worse. They know that I had to flee to a refuge but she's told everyone I lied my way in to get a council flat. I went through hell and back with exP and all I've had is family telling me how horrible I am to have treated him badly .

I cut contact with her when I was 16 and moved out, only having sporadic contact in between, but only got back in proper contact after falling pregnant with dc1 as I felt bad about depriving him of his family. In that time when I first moved out and cut contact I found out that she'd been telling horrific lies about me to family for years (accusing me of stealing my cousins ADHD medication to get high on for instance). And more recently she's told anyone who will listen that I've made up my sons SN (he has an official dx and it's not made up), even to the point of telling DS I've made it up and her and ex phoned SS to report me for child abuse for lying about it.

I can't understand why she's always made up such horrible things about me, and just now I feel like it's never going to end.

Yes DP is wonderful, he's always been a close friend so has been there through the courts and restraining order, my sons dx and my family disowning me so knows that everything I say is true which keeps me sane as I sometimes need him to reassure me that I'm not making anything up and am not this horrid person that I've been painted as. I'd have probably had a nervous breakdown if it wasn't for him tbh.

Hello Butterfly. Lurker delurking here. I have exactly the same in that I have a toxic mother working with ex against me. Mine isnt as bad but its still shocking and very difficut to deal with. Just thought Id say hi and you are not alone. Rushing out now but will be back tonight to chat more.

All thats difficult to believe is that people can be sooo very crazy and unloving/hateful and expend so much energy to evil causes :( tragic and devastating. A good place here tho where support and many listening ears.

Welcome mumfun
Princess I agree! It boggles my mind how much energy my parents put in to being horrible. And for what? Two of their three children no longer speak to them, they have no contact with their wonderful gcs. They're the ones who suffer.

I just don't understand.

Butterfly I'm glad you have a good partner, one who knows your story and that it's true. I think at first mine was a little doubtful but he gets it now!

Hi Butterfly - how awful for you. It's one thing for toxic parents to be neglectful/narcissistic etc but to actively seek to destroy your reputation & family!!!!! Unbelievable!! Have you thought of reporting them & ex to the police for harassment? I'm sure the Domestic Abuse unit would help by having a little chat with them threaten them will jail

Butterfly I'm so sorry about all you have been through. Nobody will doubt or disbelieve you on this thread.

I can't accept compliments - well I have trained myself to try. And I always feel people don't like me and are just pretending. Which sounds so paranoid but there you go.

Bit behind on the thread sorry. Exhausted after going to the parents for birthday tea for my nephew. DF doesn't ever try to make child appropriate conversation and is pissed off with me for not wanting to listen to his completely fucking stupid ill-informed views on Gary McKinnon while the kids were telling me knock knock jokes. He kept going round the house complaining about lights being on. My mum walks around humming like she is in a fucking Disney movie. I can't explain it but it made me want to scream.

I realise that sounds like utter trivial bollocks compared to the posts above. It just kills me to have to sit around playing happy families because it just feels like such a charade.

Doesn't sound trivial to me jess.

maybe minor to some jess from the outside but when it 'sits' atop of such destruction becomes unbearable! (and I for one completely 'get it'!) Fi

Thanks for the welcome.

Butterfly the examples of her bad behaviour towards you are unreal. Im glad you have a supportive DP.

I am still working out how to deal with my mother. Thankfully in my case some family members have started to see through her -and have heard the terrible things she has said about me and also about the GC (when she doesnt get exactly what she wants)

I hope some of your family can start to see through your mothers bad behaviour. How likely is it you would take ADHD meds -madness.

Hope we can all work through our issues -it helps sharing it among folk who understand !

Going to read all these later, sorry for all of you that are going through this.

Dh is now getting begged by dear aunt and guiltripping him into letting pil see the kids, great a toxic aunt...when will this end

Hi. I was going to start a thread but this is really just a vent.

It's MIL. She' done some very hurtful things to her family. She is emotionally and verbally abusive to SIL1. Nothing SIL1 can do is right. SIL1 has tried and tried to get MILs approval but it all gets thrown back in her face. I think that would make her the scapegoat.

To us, well pumpkinsweetie, you might remember the problems DH and I have had with our boiler. The thread I'll link to below but readers digest version is that MIL is our landlord (we have a proper tenancy agreement). Refuses to do work on the house, even stuff she's legally obliged to do. She claims that as she bought the house for us (well DH as it was before I met him), that we should do the repairs and maintenance. OTOH, she re-mortgaged the house and used the money for other projects and claimed she had the right to do so as it was her equity. IOW, in MILs world - we get all the expense and MIL gets all the profit. Yey us!

www.mumsnet.com/Talk/am_i_being_unreasonable/a1545014-to-be-a-little-suspicious-of-landlord-MIL

MIL likes to get all the family around her, but neither SIL1 and her DH, nor DH and myself are at all inclined to sit around with MIL playing happy families. This Christmas I wanted to spend time with SIL1 and her family, but not with MIL there because when MIL is there things are very tense and strained, and we don't have fun. So SIL arranged it that we'd go down on one day, and she'd have her Xmas get together with MIL on a different day.

We think MIL got wind of these plans so turned up today (when we were with SIL1) completely unnanounced - very unusual as she always phones. She then went to great lengths to explain exactly why she didn't phone as she usually does, I mean, overkill.

She threw a bunch of flowers at SIL1, and had a big screaming tantrum with all of her rage being directed at SIL1. Our children were around btw, MIL really didn't seem to care that they were there witnessing all of this. SIL1 is of course entirely to blame. MIL is of course clueless as to why she was not included, is extremely hurt and completely innocent of any wrong doing. I've been lurking on this thread a while and I know it's not uncommon for people like MIL to not acknowledge any wrong doing, but it still baffles me how anyone can behave in such a completely crap way to others and then expect nothing to change.

I remember your thread well TeenStrop!
It's sounds like it's been a bad day for you aswell then, funny how it's never their fault isn't it!

Well dhs aunt has texted dh all evening up until midnite harping on about how mil is sorry and how we should all give her a 4th chance and how what she did wasn't that bad, how life it short.....on & on &on.
Imo it is absolutely none of the aunts business, she sees pil twice a year and isn't there to witness all their crap.
Anyway she done a right old guiltrip on dh, he's yet again asked me if mil can see dc incase she dies having never seen them again...words put in his mind & mouth by aunt.

Well this aunt refuses to drop off presents without mil present, so i told dh to tell her not to bother then.
So aunt texts him about all the presents waiting under tree at mils from her and pil and how it's a shame we can't all forget about it & forgive as it would be sad for the dcs not to get their toys-Lovely guiltrip but it will not wash with me, infact its another example of how they have a hold over dh.
Mil has got the whole family involved this weekend about how we stopped her seeing dc, shame she forgot to mention why. Now sil2 knows the real deal she is kind off on our side and has been really nice about the whole thing.

Awful, awful family who expect forgiveness each & everytime only to carry on with their manipulative behaviour, its shocking how they use dc as a pawn in their game and i'm sick of it and won't be allowing my dc any contact whether dh like it or not...